Shooter Draws Foul (Video)

[twocentsworth]

This is a foul under ANY rule set you choose to use…Once the defender moves forward towards the shooter (whether while on the floor or in the air), he has lost LGP. The contact is his responsibility.

[JRutledge]

I have LBJ jumping into a defender that has already come back to the floor. I probably would pass on this if I saw this play clearly.

Peace

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

This is a foul under ANY rule set you choose to use…Once the defender moves forward towards the shooter (whether while on the floor or in the air), he has lost LGP. The contact is his responsibility.

The defender stopped moving forward before the shooter left his feet. I don't know how the NBA works, but in high school, this looks like nothing to me. The defender is on the floor, straight up when the shooter leaves his feet.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

This is a foul under ANY rule set you choose to use…Once the defender moves forward towards the shooter (whether while on the floor or in the air), he has lost LGP. The contact is his responsibility.

I get where you are coming from. defender jumps forward, lands and is turned sideways. not in guarding position…defense is responsible for contact even when Lebron jumps in…
i'm not going to say that official is wrong under the rules for calling that a foul.
But on this play, in that circumstance, I want to see MORE contact. If Lebron gets a bigger piece of the guy when he jumps in then i will need to make a call and will call it on defense cause he is sideways etc. That is what I think about the play. thx

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BigCat

I get where you are coming from. defender jumps forward, lands and is turned sideways.

If you get to a spot first (considering any airborne or moving player issues)and are stationary, then it doesn't matter which way you face. LGP just gives you *extra* allowed movement.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

If you get to a spot first (considering any airborne or moving player issues)and are stationary, then it doesn't matter which way you face. LGP just gives you *extra* allowed movement.

Bob, my thoughts….

if the defensive player steps into the path of the offensive player he is considered to be attempting to guard. to be legal he has to have both feet down….front of torso facing opponent. he can jump but must be in his vertical plane. If I'm dribbling and you step in my path sideways with your shoulder facing me and we crash i believe foul is on you even though you got to the spot first and were stationary. your torso didn't face me.

In the video, this defensive player is trying to guard Lebron. He "while in the path" of Lebron jumps up and forward. if he ever had LGP he lost it when he jumped forward out of his vertical plane. When he lands he is still "in the path" of Lebron. His feet are on the floor but his torso doesn't face Lebron. ( i don't think it did) I don't think he re established legal guarding position. the fact that his feet got down before contact isn't enough imo.

As i said i wouldn't call foul cause not enough contact. i don't think the defensive players positioning in the video is legal.

maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are trying to say---- thx

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

If you get to a spot first (considering any airborne or moving player issues)and are stationary, then it doesn't matter which way you face. LGP just gives you *extra* allowed movement.

True, but in this case, I don't agree that the defender has stopped moving. He jumped forward quite a bit and, at best, he has one foot down when the first point of contact began and was still moving....thus he still required LGP.

The calling official had a great view of the play too....and had a foul.

[OKREF]

I don't have a foul on this play.

[Sharpshooternes]

Originally Posted by BigCat

I get where you are coming from. defender jumps forward, lands and is turned sideways. not in guarding position…defense is responsible for contact even when Lebron jumps in…
i'm not going to say that official is wrong under the rules for calling that a foul.
But on this play, in that circumstance, I want to see MORE contact. If Lebron gets a bigger piece of the guy when he jumps in then i will need to make a call and will call it on defense cause he is sideways etc. That is what I think about the play. thx

Can anyone show me where it says that moving toward an opponent causes you to lose LGP? You just can't be moving forward at point of contact. I thought you could move forward as long as you stopped prior to contact.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

Can anyone show me where it says that moving toward an opponent causes you to lose LGP? You just can't be moving forward at point of contact. I thought you could move forward as long as you stopped prior to contact.

Legal guarding definition says 2 feet down and torso facing opponent. Defender can jump vertically as long as he stays in his plane. Rule 4 sec 23 I think. When the defender leaves the ground and is in the air flying forward he is not in his plane. He no longer has legal guarding position. When he lands he is still "in the path" of Lebron. When he is in lebrons path he has the right to stand sideways but since he is in the path he has to turn and face Lebron also. Must establish legal guarding position. If there is contact, even caused by Lebron when the defender is turned sideways, the responsibility is on the defender because he didn't get back into legal guarding position. He was standing in Lebrons path. Under the guarding rule that is guarding. He has to meet the rules to be legal. 2 feet and torso.

I didn't understand the post that said LGP doesn't apply when offense creates contact. Offense creates much contact. If I'm dribbling to the basket and you step in my path with your body sideways--You get yourfeet set and your not moving. But you are sideways. I crash into you just after your feet get down and stationary. I dribbled into you and created that contact. I still think that is a foul on you because you stepped into my path but didn't meet all requirements to be legal. You didn't turn your torso at me.

As I said earlier, I consider the fact that quarter winding down, defender does get feet down, Lebron jumps sideways and really doesn't create much contact and not a real effort to make the shot. I pass on calling it because of all those factors. I could justify calling a foul based on everything else said about LGP but I wouldn't do it.

Final thought, offense is allowed to move forward, dribble, run, jump towards its basket. If defender wants to or gets into offenses path he has to do it legally. If the defender just has to get his feet down and be stationary why is the torso stuff in the rule? And if Lebron halls off and shoves the player not in legal guarding position the foul is on Lebron because the type of contact he created, shove with arm, is not legal. My thoughts. Could be missing it all...thx

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

Can anyone show me where it says that moving toward an opponent causes you to lose LGP? You just can't be moving forward at point of contact. I thought you could move forward as long as you stopped prior to contact.

You're right. it doesn't, you don't lose LGP for moving forward unless there is contact while moving forward.

The guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs.

[Sharpshooternes]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

You're right. it doesn't, you don't lose LGP for moving forward unless there is contact while moving forward.

So if I am right about him still having LGP, he is back down to the floor before the offense jumps and creates contact. He still has LGP albeit he closed the gap to basically nothing. I think the referee got this played confused with the similar play where the offense does a pump fake and gets the defense to jump forward and then the shooter then jumps into the defense which is of course a defensive foul. I don't think the official in this play liked his call after he made it and especially after reviewing it on film.

I have a no call on this play.

[APG]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

So if I am right about him still having LGP, he is back down to the floor before the offense jumps and creates contact. He still has LGP albeit he closed the gap to basically nothing. I think the referee got this played confused with the similar play where the offense does a pump fake and gets the defense to jump forward and then the shooter then jumps into the defense which is of course a defensive foul. I don't think the official in this play liked his call after he made it and especially after reviewing it on film.

I have a no call on this play.

Under NBA rules, this defender does not have a legal guarding position.

Nonetheless, the official in this play has to decide if the defender's forward momentum had stopped after he landed prior to contact with the offensive player.

NBA Case Book (2013-2014)

268. Offensive Player A1 pump fakes Defender B1 on the perimeter. B1 jumps towards A1 and lands prior to contact when A1 naturally jumps forward. Is this an offensive
foul?

If Defender B1 lands and his forward movement stops, an offensive foul should be assessed if the contact initiated by A1 is more than marginal. If the contact is marginal, no foul has been committed. If there is contact prior to B1 landing or if B1’s momentum is still going forward after landing, a defensive foul has occurred.
RULE 12B - SECTION VII

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

So if I am right about him still having LGP, he is back down to the floor before the offense jumps and creates contact. He still has LGP albeit he closed the gap to basically nothing. I think the referee got this played confused with the similar play where the offense does a pump fake and gets the defense to jump forward and then the shooter then jumps into the defense which is of course a defensive foul. I don't think the official in this play liked his call after he made it and especially after reviewing it on film.

I have a no call on this play.

I don't see that the defender stopped moving forward prior to contact. He maybe got 1 foot down but he didn't come to a stop yet.

The official has perfect position and had nothing else to look at. It may have been close and some might choose not to call a foul but I doubt he wanted it back.