Shooter Draws Foul (Video)

[BryanV21]

1. The defender returned to the floor before contact occurred.
2. The shooter was as much the cause of contact as the defender.

I have no whistle.

[#olderthanilook]

More food for thought: from a Fed rules perspective, the rules state a defender must attain LGP by having both feet on the floor and the front part of the defender's torso must be facing the opponent.

The second criteria does not appear to have been met in this video.

[jeremy341a]

I feel the defender had landed and stopped moving forward before the contact. However I don't want to debate that part. Assuming I am correct about that my question is the following. Is LGP, the direction the defender is facing, even an issue? I don't feel it is but would like to hear others thoughts.

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by jeremy341a

I feel the defender had landed and stopped moving forward before the contact. However I don't want to debate that part. Assuming I am correct about that my question is the following. Is LGP, the direction the defender is facing, even an issue? I don't feel it is but would like to hear others thoughts.

It is an issue to establish LGP. Once established, it is not. So the Defender had LGP, jumped forward towards the defender (thus losing LGP), and does not appear to have regained/reestablished LGP because he was not facing his opponent with 2 feet on the ground.

A no call, in my opinion, would have to be based on a judgement that the contact was incidental as described in 4-27, not because the defender was in LGP.

[jeremy341a]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

It is an issue to establish LGP. Once established, it is not. So the Defender had LGP, jumped forward towards the defender (thus losing LGP), and does not appear to have regained/reestablished LGP because he was not facing his opponent with 2 feet on the ground.

A no call, in my opinion, would have to be based on a judgement that the contact was incidental as described in 4-27, not because the defender was in LGP.

What I'm saying is that does he even need legal guarding position if he beats the offensive player to the spot and is stationary.

[rsl]

LGP appears in the rulebook in three places:

4.7.2, which concerns charging, and describes what an offensive player must do to avoid a charge when the defender has LGP.

4.23, which defines LGP and describes the extra privileges you get from LGP.

4.45, which says you must have LGP for verticality.

None of these apply to contact initiated by the offense. We've debated this many times before in the context of a dribbler running into the back of a defender that is running away from him, or other situations where the offense starts the contact. LGP just does not apply here.

What if Lebron had shoved him in the back to get clearance for the shot. Would we call a defensive foul because the defender did not have LGP?

[Sharpshooternes]

Originally Posted by BigCat

I get where you are coming from. defender jumps forward, lands and is turned sideways. not in guarding position…defense is responsible for contact even when Lebron jumps in…
i'm not going to say that official is wrong under the rules for calling that a foul.
But on this play, in that circumstance, I want to see MORE contact. If Lebron gets a bigger piece of the guy when he jumps in then i will need to make a call and will call it on defense cause he is sideways etc. That is what I think about the play. thx

Can anyone show me where it says that moving toward an opponent causes you to lose LGP? You just can't be moving forward at point of contact. I thought you could move forward as long as you stopped prior to contact.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

Can anyone show me where it says that moving toward an opponent causes you to lose LGP? You just can't be moving forward at point of contact. I thought you could move forward as long as you stopped prior to contact.

Legal guarding definition says 2 feet down and torso facing opponent. Defender can jump vertically as long as he stays in his plane. Rule 4 sec 23 I think. When the defender leaves the ground and is in the air flying forward he is not in his plane. He no longer has legal guarding position. When he lands he is still "in the path" of Lebron. When he is in lebrons path he has the right to stand sideways but since he is in the path he has to turn and face Lebron also. Must establish legal guarding position. If there is contact, even caused by Lebron when the defender is turned sideways, the responsibility is on the defender because he didn't get back into legal guarding position. He was standing in Lebrons path. Under the guarding rule that is guarding. He has to meet the rules to be legal. 2 feet and torso.

I didn't understand the post that said LGP doesn't apply when offense creates contact. Offense creates much contact. If I'm dribbling to the basket and you step in my path with your body sideways--You get yourfeet set and your not moving. But you are sideways. I crash into you just after your feet get down and stationary. I dribbled into you and created that contact. I still think that is a foul on you because you stepped into my path but didn't meet all requirements to be legal. You didn't turn your torso at me.

As I said earlier, I consider the fact that quarter winding down, defender does get feet down, Lebron jumps sideways and really doesn't create much contact and not a real effort to make the shot. I pass on calling it because of all those factors. I could justify calling a foul based on everything else said about LGP but I wouldn't do it.

Final thought, offense is allowed to move forward, dribble, run, jump towards its basket. If defender wants to or gets into offenses path he has to do it legally. If the defender just has to get his feet down and be stationary why is the torso stuff in the rule? And if Lebron halls off and shoves the player not in legal guarding position the foul is on Lebron because the type of contact he created, shove with arm, is not legal. My thoughts. Could be missing it all...thx

[OKREF]

I don't have a foul on this play.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

Can anyone show me where it says that moving toward an opponent causes you to lose LGP? You just can't be moving forward at point of contact. I thought you could move forward as long as you stopped prior to contact.

You're right. it doesn't, you don't lose LGP for moving forward unless there is contact while moving forward.

The guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by jeremy341a

What I'm saying is that does he even need legal guarding position if he beats the offensive player to the spot and is stationary.

But if he doesn't meet the requirement of LGP, he must still meet the requirements of screening.

It is illegal to jump in front of a moving opponent without either having LGP or allowing time and distance. LGP just allows a much later arrival to the spot (among other things).

[Sharpshooternes]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

You're right. it doesn't, you don't lose LGP for moving forward unless there is contact while moving forward.

So if I am right about him still having LGP, he is back down to the floor before the offense jumps and creates contact. He still has LGP albeit he closed the gap to basically nothing. I think the referee got this played confused with the similar play where the offense does a pump fake and gets the defense to jump forward and then the shooter then jumps into the defense which is of course a defensive foul. I don't think the official in this play liked his call after he made it and especially after reviewing it on film.

I have a no call on this play.

[APG]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

So if I am right about him still having LGP, he is back down to the floor before the offense jumps and creates contact. He still has LGP albeit he closed the gap to basically nothing. I think the referee got this played confused with the similar play where the offense does a pump fake and gets the defense to jump forward and then the shooter then jumps into the defense which is of course a defensive foul. I don't think the official in this play liked his call after he made it and especially after reviewing it on film.

I have a no call on this play.

Under NBA rules, this defender does not have a legal guarding position.

Nonetheless, the official in this play has to decide if the defender's forward momentum had stopped after he landed prior to contact with the offensive player.

NBA Case Book (2013-2014)

268. Offensive Player A1 pump fakes Defender B1 on the perimeter. B1 jumps towards A1 and lands prior to contact when A1 naturally jumps forward. Is this an offensive
foul?

If Defender B1 lands and his forward movement stops, an offensive foul should be assessed if the contact initiated by A1 is more than marginal. If the contact is marginal, no foul has been committed. If there is contact prior to B1 landing or if B1’s momentum is still going forward after landing, a defensive foul has occurred.
RULE 12B - SECTION VII

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

So if I am right about him still having LGP, he is back down to the floor before the offense jumps and creates contact. He still has LGP albeit he closed the gap to basically nothing. I think the referee got this played confused with the similar play where the offense does a pump fake and gets the defense to jump forward and then the shooter then jumps into the defense which is of course a defensive foul. I don't think the official in this play liked his call after he made it and especially after reviewing it on film.

I have a no call on this play.

I don't see that the defender stopped moving forward prior to contact. He maybe got 1 foot down but he didn't come to a stop yet.

The official has perfect position and had nothing else to look at. It may have been close and some might choose not to call a foul but I doubt he wanted it back.

[jeremy341a]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

But if he doesn't meet the requirement of LGP, he must still meet the requirements of screening.

It is illegal to jump in front of a moving opponent without either having LGP or allowing time and distance. LGP just allows a much later arrival to the spot (among other things).

When screening a stationary opponent from front the screener must stop anywhere short of contact.

When screening a moving opponent, the screener must allow the opponent time and distance to avoid contact. The speed of the player screened will determine where the screener may take his stationary position.

Lebron was either stationary or moving very slowly when the "screen" took place. Since Lebron attempted to make contact and still made very little I think he was allowed time and distance to avoid the contact. I don't feel these were violated. Your thoughts please. Also I am looking at this from the NFHS side of things. thanks