Freedom of Movement 10-6-12

[rockyroad]

Sooooo...just to make sure I understand this all correctly:

The NF rule says it is a foul if the defender contacts the ball handler more than once with the same hand or alternating hands.

Mr. Rutledge says he won't call that if there is some undetermined amount of time between the first touch and the second touch.

So my question is: What is that undetermined amount of time? Are you going to count the number of steps the ballhandler takes between defensive touches? 4 or fewer steps will result in a foul call, while 5 or more will result in no foul being called? Or will it be a certain number of seconds off the clock between touches?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Sooooo...just to make sure I understand this all correctly:

The NF rule says it is a foul if the defender contacts the ball handler more than once with the same hand or alternating hands.

Mr. Rutledge says he won't call that if there is some undetermined amount of time between the first touch and the second touch.

So my question is: What is that undetermined amount of time? Are you going to count the number of steps the ballhandler takes between defensive touches? 4 or fewer steps will result in a foul call, while 5 or more will result in no foul being called? Or will it be a certain number of seconds off the clock between touches?

Can you show the exact quote where I said I would not call the second touch? Or did you read me say that RSBQ would be a factor in that kind of play?

And if you have to ask all those questions, then the rule does not have a definitive answer to begin with. IJS.

Peace

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Can you show the exact quote where I said I would not call the second touch? Or did you read me say that RSBQ would be a factor in that kind of play?

And if you have to ask all those questions, then the rule does not have a definitive answer to begin with. IJS.

Peace

Here's the problem. The 4 NFHS absolutes don't mention RSBQ, or time or distance between touches. They rule says if you do A,B,C, or D then a foul is to be called.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Here's the problem. The 4 NFHS absolutes don't mention RSBQ, or time or distance between touches. They rule says if you do A,B,C, or D then a foul is to be called.

RSBQ is referenced with illegal contact. It is not referenced with the absolutes. But the play we are talking about, is not an absolute. None of what we are talking about applies to A, B, C or D. And all rules have an spirit or intent. Sorry, but I do not think the committee envisioned a touch 70 feet from the basket would be considered a foul if the second touch takes place 10 feet from the basket by the same player. Better yet, the wording does not even say same or different player and I doubt the interpretation or the intent of the rule was to have different players be apart of this situation.

Again you cannot say what the rules says and add to the interpretation and then get mad when others judge the interpretation of states that want to make it clear how they want to the rules to apply. The coaching box rule does not say that if a toe is outside the line you call a Technical foul either and I doubt in any situation where that takes place, you or many here are calling a T. But the rule is the rule right?

Peace

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Can you show the exact quote where I said I would not call the second touch? Or did you read me say that RSBQ would be a factor in that kind of play?

And if you have to ask all those questions, then the rule does not have a definitive answer to begin with. IJS.

Peace

Let's see...Posts #26, 46, 49, and 83.

I am sure you are capable of going back and looking at them. After all, you are a clinician in your state.

And I don't HAVE to ask all these questions. I already understand how they want this called. I just want you to pin down your definition of when the defender touching the ballhandler a second time with the same or alternating hands IS and IS NOT a foul.

Pretty simple question...let's see if you can actually answer it.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Let's see...Posts #26, 46, 49, and 83.

I am sure you are capable of going back and looking at them. After all, you are a clinician in your state.

Yes I did say I was not calling what was described because it did not fit the rule and RSBQ would be a factor. And yes, I am a State Clinician that calls a lot of handchecking type fouls. If you want to know, look on line. Just about all my playoff games last year were on video. You can look at those calls and decide for yourself.

Oh, High School Cube and the IHSA Network for my Super-Sectional. All still there. If you want the specific links, I can help you there too.

Originally Posted by rockyroad

And I don't HAVE to ask all these questions. I already understand how they want this called. I just want you to pin down your definition of when the defender touching the ballhandler a second time with the same or alternating hands IS and IS NOT a foul.

Pretty simple question...let's see if you can actually answer it.

I only asked questions to prove point. And it is clear that those here that did any research had the information. Remember, I was not alone in my stance. And it was clear that once again, Women's officials wanted to make their philosophies apply to the NF when the rules and philosophies are often different from each other. As I said, this was a POE in our state last year before a rule. What they wanted was beat into our head extensively before the season. And no where did a foul apply in the type of play that was being discussed. I just did.

Peace

[Raymond]

I interpret 10-6-12d as the repeated hot stove touch, not touching A1 at the 28' line in the backcourt, then again 40' up the court. Can somebody point me to where the NFHS has said they wanted called this way (2 separate touches 40' apart)? If I missed it somewhere in this thread I apologize.

[APG]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I interpret 10-6-12d as the repeated hot stove touch, not touching A1 at the 28' line in the backcourt, then again 40' up the court. Can somebody point me to where the NFHS has said they wanted called this way (2 separate touches 40' apart)? If I missed it somewhere in this thread I apologize.

Every video example I've seen regarding repeated touching has been just as you've described.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by APG

Every video example I've seen regarding repeated touching has been just as you've described.

I think that may make the most sense but it isn't how the rule is currently written.

Basically, it seems they're saying they'll give a defender a mulligan for 1 touch and 1 touch only as long as it doesn't affect RSBQ but are not going to give repeated exceptions. I see it more that they simply want the hands completely off but are going to be merciful once.