2014 Unannounced Changes? (e.g. Casebook 4.14.1 Sit. D)

[APG]

Thoughts on this new casebook play?

*4.14.1 SITUATION D:

A1 is fouled by B1 while Team A is in double bonus. In frustration, A1 pushes B1 after the ball becomes dead. A1 is assessed a technical foul. A1 successfully makes both free throws for the personal foul assessed to B1. B3 is ready to attempt the free throw for the technical foul by A1. The official scorer notifies the officials that the technical foul on A1 was his/her fifth.

RULING: Officials notify the Team A coach and A1 of the disqualification and allow a substitute for A1. A correctable error has occurred by allowing the wrong player (A1) to attempt the free throws for the personal foul and has been discovered within the timeframe to correct. The free throws by A1 are cancelled and A1’s substitute shall attempt the free throws for the personal foul against A1 followed by the attempts by Team B for the technical foul. (2-10-1c, 4-14-1)

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by APG

Thoughts on this new casebook play?

*4.14.1 SITUATION D:

A1 is fouled by B1 while Team A is in double bonus. In frustration, A1 pushes B1 after the ball becomes dead. A1 is assessed a technical foul. A1 successfully makes both free throws for the personal foul assessed to B1. B3 is ready to attempt the free throw for the technical foul by A1. The official scorer notifies the officials that the technical foul on A1 was his/her fifth.

RULING: Officials notify the Team A coach and A1 of the disqualification and allow a substitute for A1. A correctable error has occurred by allowing the wrong player (A1) to attempt the free throws for the personal foul and has been discovered within the timeframe to correct. The free throws by A1 are cancelled and A1’s substitute shall attempt the free throws for the personal foul against A1 followed by the attempts by Team B for the technical foul. (2-10-1c, 4-14-1)

Whoever came up with this RULING should be sent back to Basketball Officiating 101. R2-S10-A1c and R4-S14-A1 do NOT apply. The only rule that applies is: R4-S14-A2, which states: "A player is officially disqualified and becomes bench personnel when the coach is notified by an official."

My first game of the season (also Mark, Jr.'s) is not until Nov. 13th and already I am gnashing my teeth and pulling out what little hair I left on my head.

MTD, Sr.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Whoever came up with this RULING should be sent back to Basketball Officiating 101. R2-S10-A1c and R4-S14-A1 do NOT apply. The only rule that applies is: R4-S14-A2, which states: "A player is officially disqualified and becomes bench personnel when the coach is notified by an official."

Along with the Note on 2-11-5: The procedure if a player who has committed his/her fifth foul continues to play because the scorer has failed to notify the official is as follows: As soon as the scorer discovers the irregularity, the game horn should be sounded after, or as soon as, the ball is in control of the offending team or is dead. The disqualified player must be removed immediately. Any points which may have been scored while such player was illegally in the game are counted. If other aspects of the error are correctable, the procedure to be followed is included among the duties of the officials.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Along with the Note on 2-11-5: The procedure if a player who has committed his/her fifth foul continues to play because the scorer has failed to notify the official is as follows: As soon as the scorer discovers the irregularity, the game horn should be sounded after, or as soon as, the ball is in control of the offending team or is dead. The disqualified player must be removed immediately. Any points which may have been scored while such player was illegally in the game are counted. If other aspects of the error are correctable, the procedure to be followed is included among the duties of the officials.

Are you supporting "my" RULING or supporting the NFHS Casebook RULING? I believe that the Note in NFHS R2-11-A5 further supports "my" RULING. And should be included with NHFS R4-S14-A2.

MTD, Sr.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

The only rule that applies is: R4-S14-A2, which states: "A player is officially disqualified and becomes bench personnel when the coach is notified by an official."

Nice citation Mark T, DeNucci.

In theory I agree with you, but I've always viewed specific casebook plays as "trumping" anything generic in the rulebook. It appears that the fact that the coach was not notified and that the "five foul player" made some free throws is now considered to be a correctable error.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Nice citation Mark T, DeNucci.

In theory I agree with you, but I've always viewed specific casebook plays as "trumping" anything generic in the rulebook. It appears that the fact that the coach was not notified and that the "five foul player" made some free throws is now considered to be a correctable error.

Or, as most of us have assumed, it might just be that someone wrote a case play without reviewing the rules or consulting someone else who had.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Adam

Or, as most of us have assumed, it might just be that someone wrote a case play without reviewing the rules or consulting someone else who had.

It happens all too often for that to not be the case!

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Adam

...it might just be that someone wrote a case play without reviewing the rules or consulting someone else who had.

That's crazy talk. This is the NFHS. Something like that would never happen.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Nice citation Mark T, DeNucci.

In theory I agree with you, but I've always viewed specific casebook plays as "trumping" anything generic in the rulebook. It appears that the fact that the coach was not notified and that the "five foul player" made some free throws is now considered to be a correctable error.

But not with the CB Play cannot be defended by rule.

MTD, Sr.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

But not with the CB Play cannot be defended by rule.

I'm on my way to work, so I don't have time to think of one, and I can't think of one off the top of my head, but aren't there a few casebook plays that are "free standing" and have no rule backing, or may actually "go against the grain" of a written rule?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by APG

Thoughts on this new casebook play?

iirc, NFHS had this one way, and NCAA (at least W) had it the other. I'm glad they decided to make them the same, but they changed the wrong one.

[scrounge]

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[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

iirc, NFHS had this one way, and NCAA (at least W) had it the other. I'm glad they decided to make them the same, but they changed the wrong one.

Since I retired from college officiating after the 2007-08 season my interest in the college (men's and women's) is to the extent that I buy copies of the rules, casebooks, and CCA manuals, and only skim through them. When did the NCAA Women's make this change?

MTD, Sr.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Since I retired from college officiating after the 2007-08 season my interest in the college (men's and women's) is to the extent that I buy copies of the rules, casebooks, and CCA manuals, and only skim through them. When did the NCAA Women's make this change?

MTD, Sr.

Oh, about 10 years ago (I don't know that it was a change)

[JetMetFan]

For those who are interested, this is the (edited) NCAAW case play for the NFHS situation detailed above:

A.R. 65. A5 is fouled during an unsuccessful try for goal. As A5 goes to the free-throw line, A5 is assessed an unsportsmanlike technical foul, which is A5’s fifth and disqualifying foul. The scorer...does not inform the official that A5 has been disqualified until after A5 attempts the free throws.

RULING: Since A5 and A5’s coach were not notified of the disqualification until after A5’s free throws, the result of A5’s free throws shall stand. (Rule 4-12.4, 8-3.2.c, 2-9.4 and 4-27.1.e)