question about double dribble

[schwza]

This is a question from a pickup basketball game, but nobody really knows the rules, so I thought I'd ask some actual referees.

1. A player is dribbling the ball, and then begins to pick it up. He touches the ball with both hands at the same time, but does not control it, and it bounces on the floor. He picks it up. Is this a double dribble (or some other violation)?

2. Instead of picking it up, he tap it to a teammate.

3. Instead of picking it up, he starts dribbling again.

4. Suppose he dribbles, then picks it up cleanly with two hands, and then tries to pass, but the ball slips out of his hands and bounces on the floor. He grabs the ball.

Thanks!

[BillyMac]

Fumble, dribble, fumble: Legal.

Dribble, fumble, dribble: Illegal.

[schwza]

Thanks for the quick reply. I don't get it though - are you saying all four are turnovers?

Originally Posted by schwza

Thanks for the quick reply. I don't get it though - are you saying all four are turnovers?

No, Billy was giving you the rule of thumb for these plays.

1. Legal

2. Legal

3. Probably illegal, depends if the referee has judged the dribble to have ended.

4. Depends if the referee judges the player to have fumbled (legal) or passed the ball (illegal).

[APG]

Originally Posted by schwza

This is a question from a pickup basketball game, but nobody really knows the rules, so I thought I'd ask some actual referees.

1. A player is dribbling the ball, and then begins to pick it up. He touches the ball with both hands at the same time, but does not control it, and it bounces on the floor. He picks it up. Is this a double dribble (or some other violation)?

2. Instead of picking it up, he tap it to a teammate.

3. Instead of picking it up, he starts dribbling again.

4. Suppose he dribbles, then picks it up cleanly with two hands, and then tries to pass, but the ball slips out of his hands and bounces on the floor. He grabs the ball.

Thanks!

In general, it's always legal to recover a fumble. What is a fumble will be a judgement call.

I also want to point out that since you mention pick up ball, a lot of what players want to apply in games are NBA rules. What Billy pointed out (as far as fumbling and dribbling) is true for NFHS (US high school and NCAA) rules.

For the NBA, assuming the player had not used their dribble yet, may recover a fumble. The fumbler may only dribble if he recovers the ball before it hits the floor and/or he moves his pivot foot. If either of those occur, he may still recover but not dribble the ball after recovery.

In addition, under NBA rules, may not recover a bad pass (which can look like a fumble), even if he hasn't used his dribble. This is considered a self-pass (a concept only under NBA rules)

Again, the only reason I bring up these scenarios is when playing pick-up games, people tend to try and apply NBA rules such as not being able to recover your own airball.

[BillyMac]

1. A player is dribbling the ball, and then begins to pick it up. He touches the ball with both hands at the same time, but does not control it, and it bounces on the floor. He picks it up.

Legal. One can always legally pick up a fumble.

2. Instead of picking it up, he taps it to a teammate.

Legal. If it's legal to pick up the fumble, than it must also be legal to tap the fumble.

3. Instead of picking it up, he starts dribbling again.

Illegal dribble. The first dribble ended when the ball was touched with both hands.

4. Suppose he dribbles, then picks it up cleanly with two hands, and then tries to pass, but the ball slips out of his hands and bounces on the floor. He grabs the ball.

Legal. One can always legally pick up a fumble.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by schwza

This is a question from a pickup basketball game, but nobody really knows the rules, so I thought I'd ask some actual referees.

3. Instead of picking it up, he starts dribbling again.

#3 is the only one that is a violation. When the dribbler touches the ball with both hands, the dribble has ended. When he dribbles again, violation.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by schwza

A player is dribbling the ball, and then begins to pick it up. He touches the ball with both hands at the same time, but does not control it, and it bounces on the floor. He picks it up ... He starts dribbling again.

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

... When he dribbles again, violation.

When is the violation called? When the ball is released toward the floor? When the ball is released toward the floor, and hits the floor? When the ball is released toward the floor, hits the floor, and is subsequently tapped to the floor?

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

When is the violation called? When the ball is released toward the floor? When the ball is released toward the floor, and hits the floor? When the ball is released toward the floor, hits the floor, and is subsequently tapped to the floor?

You don't know it's a dribble until the ball handler touches it again after releasing it. Until then it could just be a really lousy pass.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

You don't know it's a dribble until the ball handler touches it again after releasing it. Until then it could just be a really lousy pass.

I agree with you, but the definition states that the "second" illegal dribble starts when the ball is pushed, thrown, or batted to the floor.

4-15-3: The dribble may be started by pushing, throwing, or batting the ball
to the floor before the pivot foot is lifted.

[bob jenkins]

It's the same old crap that gets brought up everytime we have this discussion. If NFHS clarified it, you'd be the firsts to know.

Until then, just officiate. It's never been an issue -- and if you happen to call it too soon, just decalre an inadvertant whistle.

[BktBallRef]

From the time the ball touches both hands until the time the ball hits the floor might be 3 tenths of a second. Are we really splitting that hair?

And some people say there are no stupid questions. smh

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

From the time the ball touches both hands until the time the ball hits the floor might be 3 tenths of a second. Are we really splitting that hair?

Add a few tenths of a second if the official wants to wait until the ball is touched after it bounces off the floor before he calls the illegal dribble violation.

[BktBallRef]

Okay BillyMac, if you want to wait 6 tenths of a second, by all means do.

Wait just as long as you want to.

As Bob said, just officiate the play.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Just officiate the play.

I'm waiting until the ball is touched again to call an illegal dribble violation. As bob jenkins pointed out, this is a "gray area" in the NFHS rules, and I may be wrong on a written test question regarding this situation.

Sometimes (often) you have to officiate the game. Sometimes (seldom) you have to take a written test. In theory they should have the same answer, but sometimes theory and reality don't agree.