How would you handle this situation better (Video)

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Not necessarily. If the crew had made a call, even a charge, she may have not reacted at all or at least not as much. I think the lack of a call with a player who was injured is what infuriated her so much. It is when the officials don't make a call when it was clear there was a foul that is the problem.

The collision happened at 6 seconds. The coach stands up to protest the call at 7 seconds. I don't know how she knew her player was injured in the span of 1 second, but it's possible.

This coach is clearly pissed because of what she thinks is a foul against her player, and a missed call (perhaps the final straw) by the crew.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And this would not be any different than any other day of the week. And it also appears that she probably snapped for other reasons more than this call. Usually you do not go crazy like that over one so-called missed call.

All the more reason when it's this close to call a block here. We don't make calls in a vacuum, sometimes we need to add a little common sense to our calls. It's called game management and I thought more here would agree with me.

If there was a block called on this play I predict the offensive players coach would not have blown up, the defensive coach would not have protested at all, and this video is a non-story. Am I totally wrong here?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by AremRed

All the more reason when it's this close to call a block here. We don't make calls in a vacuum, sometimes we need to add a little common sense to our calls. It's called game management and I thought more here would agree with me.

If there was a block called on this play I predict the offensive players coach would not have blown up, the defensive coach would not have protested at all, and this video is a non-story. Am I totally wrong here?

If you do not feel there is a call, then what common sense are we discussing here? And I see a lot of games where players fall and nothign was illegal. That is why I do not subscribe to the "If a players falls to the floor we must have a call." IMO we must know how they got there, but we do not need a call. And just making a call is not going to make a lot of coaches happy.

I think we worry too much about why coaches go nuts. You can be totally correct and a coach goes nuts. I have better things to be concerned with.

Peace

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by AremRed

All the more reason when it's this close to call a block here. We don't make calls in a vacuum, sometimes we need to add a little common sense to our calls. It's called game management and I thought more here would agree with me.

If there was a block called on this play I predict the offensive players coach would not have blown up, the defensive coach would not have protested at all, and this video is a non-story. Am I totally wrong here?

You seem to be advocating calling the play a block because the visiting team is down 20 points and you think that such would appease the coach.
If that is the case, then that is the wrong way to officiate. We aren't there to make the coaches happy. We are there to ensure a player safety and a fair contest. Calling this a block because of time and score, not on the merits of the action, is grossly unfair to the defender and her team.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

You seem to be advocating calling the play a block because the visiting team is down 20 points and you think that such would appease the coach.
If that is the case, then that is the wrong way to officiate. We aren't there to make the coaches happy. We are there to ensure a player safety and a fair contest. Calling this a block because of time and score, not on the merits of the action, is grossly unfair to the defender and her team.

I am advocating calling that play a block because 1) I think it's a block, 2) if it's close you could still call it a block, 3) the offensive coach would be ok with the call, and 4) the defensive coach would be ok with the block call even if marginal.

I am not suggesting to call clear plays the opposite way just to give one team a call. That would be unethical. But I don't think this play is clear, and other factors come into play.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by AremRed

I am advocating calling that play a block because 1) I think it's a block, 2) if it's close you could still call it a block, 3) the offensive coach would be ok with the call, and 4) the defensive coach would be ok with the block call even if marginal.

I am not suggesting to call clear plays the opposite way just to give one team a call. That would be unethical. But I don't think this play is clear, and other factors come into play.

With due respect to you, points #1 & #2 are the only valid reasons for calling a blocking foul and #2 only comes into consideration if there had been similar decisions made by the crew previously in the contest.
I don't give a rat's behind about #3 & #4. I'll eat my whistle before I make calls based upon how a coach is going to take it.
LGP and the amount of force in the contact are the two factors that I consider on a block/charge play.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

With due respect to you, points #1 & #2 are the only valid reasons for calling a blocking foul and #2 only comes into consideration if there had been similar decisions made by the crew previously in the contest.
I don't give a rat's behind about #3 & #4. I'll eat my whistle before I make calls based upon how a coach is going to take it.
LGP and the amount of force in the contact are the two factors that I consider on a block/charge play.

I'd typically agree with you -- obviously the goal is to get the call right. We don't make calls in a vacuum however, there is more that goes into a call than just what happened that time. You have to consider how the crew has treated similar plays, what was said in the pregame about different plays, and game management goes into it as well.

If this play was called a block, do you think the defender's coach would be sending this play in to the supervisor/assignor bitching about the call? I don't think so. Do you think the offensive player's coach would have blown up like she did? I don't think so. Again, not advocating making a wrong decision to appease a coach, but everyone would accept a blocking foul here. Does that mean something? I think it does. Sometimes we have to referee to expectations instead of strictly calling things in a vacuum. Refereeing the defense and getting the call right based on the rules and previous plays (for consistency) are my 1a and 1b priorities, but I think there are other factors that can also weigh in.

[Nevadaref]

I would advise you to stop considering all the other factors you mention beyond your 1a and 1b priorities. They can only get you into trouble and possibly even get you accused of game manipulation.
Plus I'm only on board with your 1b on close decisions. I'm not going to call something incorrectly because a partner kicked a call earlier in the game.

You are certainly aware of the video age in which we officiate because you mention coaches clipping plays and sending them in. Let me share with you that I recall Nevada upsetting Gonzaga in the Sweet 16 in 2004 and the game wasn't really close. I worked the scrimmage for the NV team at the start of the next season and had seen the NCAA preseason video. There was actually a block/charge play from that game included. It was a Gonzaga player attacking the basket on a fast break and a Nevada guard back on D tried to take a charge. The official called a block. The NCAA video stated the play was a clear charging foul. But what I remember is the NV coach's comment at the scrimmage. We were asked to stringently enforce the upcoming POEs, such as offensive post players using their arms in a backward wrapping motion to hook/hold/pin defenders. Anyway the coach commented that he had seen the video and when he saw Mark Few on a recruiting trip at a summer tournament, he told him that he won by 19 and it should have been 21! So, coaches do notice such calls and remember them.

Lastly, to characterize certain calls as "game management" or state that a particular decision should be made because it will be accepted without a fuss seems to inherently admit the incorrectness of the call. The only game management fouls that I can envision as valid would involve cleaning up rough play during rebounding action and they would be to control the players not the coaches. Game management calls for coaches involve verbal warnings and technical fouls. A block/charge should never fall under this heading. I have complete anathema for making a decision because it will be accepted while the correct call will generate complaining. Consider many backcourt violations. Often the correct call of a violation gets grief because the coaches don't know the rule, while not calling anything will be accepted. That doesn't make it right. I also think that officials who do such are lazy and weak. Not saying that you personally would do such, just commenting in general on what I've observed over several years in officiating.

[JugglingReferee]

When you're that close to the coach & table, sound your whistle, step way back into the FRA (even if this delay takes a few seconds), and issue the T, then take 3 simple steps backwards and then it's waaaaay easier for the coach to hang themselves, and for the your P to issue the 2nd T.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by AremRed

The collision happened at 6 seconds. The coach stands up to protest the call at 7 seconds. I don't know how she knew her player was injured in the span of 1 second, but it's possible.

This coach is clearly pissed because of what she thinks is a foul against her player, and a missed call (perhaps the final straw) by the crew.

You're assuming too much.

Yes, she stood up, unhappy with the no-call at 7....but it took a few more, at 12, to get the T...and 17 to get the 2nd T.

That was certainly plenty of time for her to react to the initial play and react more to the player being down.

Still, the defender met all the requirements for LGP to make it a charge, so she really didn't have anything to complain about. And I'm not calling it backwards just because the team is down.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

You're assuming too much.

Yes, she stood up, unhappy with the no-call at 7....but it took a few more, at 12, to get the T...and 17 to get the 2nd T.

That was certainly plenty of time for her to react to the initial play and react more to the player being down.

Still, the defender met all the requirements for LGP to make it a charge, so she really didn't have anything to complain about. And I'm not calling it backwards just because the team is down.

My only quibble is that while he blew the whistle at 17 for the second T, it took him two seconds to actually get his whistle out. She earned the second one in less than 3 seconds after getting the first one.

Again, I ask everyone who says he should have gotten out of there, how did he have time?

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Adam

My only quibble is that while he blew the whistle at 17 for the second T, it took him two seconds to actually get his whistle out. She earned the second one in less than 3 seconds after getting the first one.

Again, I ask everyone who says he should have gotten out of there, how did he have time?

I don't think he was wrong to give both. She obviously said something she should not have said...

My complaint is that neither of the partners hustled over there at all. One slowly walked over. The other stood across the court dribbling the ball. One of them should have gotten over there and made sure nothing escalated after the T's.

[Pantherdreams]

T seems warranted.

I'm ok with a charge call here or the no call. I don't see it as a block so not willing to make up that call for "game management."

Both T's seem warranted but quick is succession. I work with a few guys do similar things, they almost allow more then I would allow before giving the first 1 but if the coach/player doesn't immedaitely respond to the whistle and T signal with silence and walking away they will almost assuredly give the 2nd one right away.

If someone is out of control the idea that I'm going to blow my whistle and make a gesture with my hands that is immediately going to rectify their behaviour seems a little extreme.

If I call that T its after I walk away from the confrontation and call/report it the table. Then leave to administer once its awarded the first time. If she's willing to chase me across the court to stay on me then she earns the second one and the title as the only woman willing to chase me anywhere.

Standing there and T'ing her up then creating no seperation while she is upset , and giving her the 2nd one for being upset in the same act, position, same dialogue you just t'd her up for. Your only a little past the point where if the coach "Terrible call , you moron!" then you could in theory give a coach a T for first half of the phrase and then the 2nd. Not defending coaches but its all 1 sentiment or expression of frustration. If after a time that expression of frustration won't stop (After you've walked away, after the t's been called, after you've tried to administer) sure ring coach up again.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

I don't think he was wrong to give both. She obviously said something she should not have said...

My complaint is that neither of the partners hustled over there at all. One slowly walked over. The other stood across the court dribbling the ball. One of them should have gotten over there and made sure nothing escalated after the T's.

I agree with this. He probably would have gotten both T's called anyway, but it would have looked better.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by Adam

My only quibble is that while he blew the whistle at 17 for the second T, it took him two seconds to actually get his whistle out. She earned the second one in less than 3 seconds after getting the first one.

Again, I ask everyone who says he should have gotten out of there, how did he have time?

It's really more to the other two guys. Their walking around looking lost. Someone needs to hustle up and get over and be a buffer while the one is reporting the first technical.

[Sharpshooternes]

Originally Posted by OKREF

It's really more to the other two guys. Their walking around looking lost. Someone needs to hustle up and get over and be a buffer while the one is reporting the first technical.

I have heard some officials say that if you, as one of the partners heads over to the coach after they get whacked that it looks like the crew is split and one partner is trying to caudal the coach and be friends. I don't think I agree with this philosophy but could you all weigh in on that?