No call or foul? (Clips)

Sharpshooternes

A1 pulls up for a jumper with B1 standing in front with arms up in LGP and arms inside cylinder. A1s forward motion of his shooting arm contacts B1's forearm affecting his shot. I called this a foul the other day and didn't feel good about it then and think I was wrong. Anyone share any thoughts on this or tricks to help with deciding what kind of arm contact is a foul, incidental or marginal?

JRutledge

Do not penalize a defender for doing nothing illegal. Unless the defender was moving forward while the shooter left the floor, I see no reason to call a foul on them at all. The shooter should take a better shot.

Peace

APG

In your opinion what did the defender do wrong?

Sharpshooternes

APG wrote
In your opinion what did the defender do wrong?

I have been focusing on really seeing what's happens with arms and picking up illegal arm contact. A trick or two that I have learned is to watch the defender's arm. If it doesn't get as high as the ball the contact is most likely illegal arm contact. Hand to hand contact after the ball is released and isn't excessive ( basically a high five) is nothing. Contact on the forearm or elbow while the shooter still has the ball is illegal is a foul. I was kind of focusing on these things and saw the defender hit the shooter ( or vice versa) on the forearm.

The defender in retrospect didn't do anything wrong and I should have no called it. Thanks for putting into words what I was thinking.

Camron Rust

Sharpshooternes wrote
I have been focusing on really seeing what's happens with arms and picking up illegal arm contact. A trick or two that I have learned is to watch the defender's arm. If it doesn't get as high as the ball the contact is most likely illegal arm contact. Hand to hand contact after the ball is released and isn't excessive ( basically a high five) is nothing. Contact on the forearm or elbow while the shooter still has the ball is illegal is a foul. I was kind of focusing on these things and saw the defender hit the shooter ( or vice versa) on the forearm.

The defender in retrospect didn't do anything wrong and I should have no called it. Thanks for putting into words what I was thinking.

The height to which they raise their arm has no bearing on whether it is a foul or not. In fact, if they're going straight up from LGP, it should never be a foul, regardless of where the contact occurs. Any contact with the vertical arms of a defender in LGP is the fault of the shooter. It is probably not a foul on the shooter but it is most definitely not a foul on the defender.

Sharpshooternes

Camron Rust wrote
The height to which they raise their arm has no bearing on whether it is a foul or not. In fact, if they're going straight up from LGP, it should never be a foul, regardless of where the contact occurs. Any contact with the vertical arms of a defender in LGP is the fault of the shooter. It is probably not a foul on the shooter but it is most definitely not a foul on the defender.

Point taken

APG

Sharpshooternes wrote
I have been focusing on really seeing what's happens with arms and picking up illegal arm contact. A trick or two that I have learned is to watch the defender's arm. If it doesn't get as high as the ball the contact is most likely illegal arm contact. Hand to hand contact after the ball is released and isn't excessive ( basically a high five) is nothing. Contact on the forearm or elbow while the shooter still has the ball is illegal is a foul. I was kind of focusing on these things and saw the defender hit the shooter ( or vice versa) on the forearm.

The defender in retrospect didn't do anything wrong and I should have no called it. Thanks for putting into words what I was thinking.

All that you're looking for there as far as point of contact and the shot is good (and I would suggest to keep doing that), but we still have to referee the defense and ascertain whether the defense has a legal position or not.

[deleted]

Camron Rust wrote
The height to which they raise their arm has no bearing on whether it is a foul or not.

Hand level, not arm level. It helps determine blocked shot vs. foul when a player is trying to block the shot.

JRutledge

AremRed wrote
Hand level, not arm level. It helps determine blocked shot vs. foul when a player is trying to block the shot.

You lost me with this response.

If you are in your vertical plane, it is hard to have a different position with your hands than your hands.

Peace

Camron Rust

AremRed wrote
Hand level, not arm level. It helps determine blocked shot vs. foul when a player is trying to block the shot.

Irrelevant if the players hands are vertical as was asked in the OP. There was no question about an attempt to block the shot but A1's arms coming into B1's.

B1 standing in front with arms up in LGP and arms inside cylinder. A1s forward motion of his shooting arm contacts B1's forearm affecting his shot.

Sharpshooternes

Can our video gurus post maybe a play involving slight arm contact that is illegal and perhaps some major contact that is legal?

JRutledge

I know of some verticality plays that have been posted here. Not sure the contact was only with the arms.

Peace

Sharpshooternes

And maybe while we are at it, I know a lot of newer officials, myself included struggle with a blocked shot+body contact=foul. If there is a clean block up top and then body contact that should be incidental correct? If the body contact occurs before the blocked shot this is a foul. How about from behind say on a breakaway: a blocked shot from behind with body contact that knocks the shooter off balance. What do you rule on this?

JRutledge

Sharpshooternes wrote
And maybe while we are at it, I know a lot of newer officials, myself included struggle with a blocked shot+body contact=foul. If there is a clean block up top and then body contact that should be incidental correct?

That is what I believe, but there are people that disagree. To me a blocked shot of any kind had to be with some level of body contact if it is a one on one type block attempt. And when a bigger player is making a block, any contact with them is going to be more violent. I can tell you that if you play with bigger and faster players, that is usually the accepted point of view.

Sharpshooternes wrote
If the body contact occurs before the blocked shot this is a foul. How about from behind say on a breakaway: a blocked shot from behind with body contact that knocks the shooter off balance. What do you rule on this?

If you illegally contact someone to make a play, then I have no problem calling a foul. But again there is going to be body contact on shots sometime. All contact even that has a player not in a legal position means you have to have a foul.

Peace

[deleted]

Camron Rust wrote
Irrelevant if the players hands are vertical as was asked in the OP.

Which is why I wrote "when a player is trying to block the shot". Sharpshooternes is on the right track with the hand level thing, but it is used in a different situation than this verticality play he is talking about.

Sharpshooternes wrote
And maybe while we are at it, I know a lot of newer officials, myself included struggle with a blocked shot+body contact=foul. If there is a clean block up top and then body contact that should be incidental correct? If the body contact occurs before the blocked shot this is a foul. How about from behind say on a breakaway: a blocked shot from behind with body contact that knocks the shooter off balance. What do you rule on this?

Ball then body is usually incidental (no-call). Body then ball could be a foul or no-call, depending on the amount/legality of contact and what you have called before.

Camron Rust

AremRed wrote
Ball then body is usually incidental (no-call). Body then ball could be a foul or no-call, depending on the amount/legality of contact and what you have called before.

Agree....with body first, you have to decide if that body contact enabled the block or not. If they would have not been able to get to the ball without going through the body, it should probably be a foul. If the would have blocked the ball either way, maybe not, depending on how much contact.

JetMetFan

Essentially it's a matter of displacement/did the defender gain an advantage that wasn't intended by rule? Put it this way, would we let a defender go through a ball-handler/dribbler to steal the ball? Most likely, no. Same thing with blocking a shot.

As for video, I'll check to see if anything in my list applies to Sharp's request.

APG

Note that many agreed that play three should have been a no call

Raymond

I have fouls in the 3rd (Lebron) and 4th (Paplovic) videos.

Sharpshooternes

BadNewsRef wrote
I have fouls in the 3rd (Lebron) and 4th (Paplovic) videos.

Can you please elaborate as to why?