Double lane violation

[Sharpshooternes]

A1 is at the line for the second of two FTs. A1 releases the shot. B1, in the lower block, opposite the lead official comes into the lane. Lead has the delayed violation signal. A1, knowing the shot is going to miss, comes in early to try and secure a rebound. The shot then hits the rim and misses. Both officials sound their whistle. What is the call?

[APG]

9.1.3 Situation H

[Nevadaref]

I intend the following in a respectful manner and as a serious question.
Is English a second language for you?

[Sharpshooternes]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I intend the following in a respectful manner and as a serious question.
Is English a second language for you?

No. English is my first language. Why do you ask?

[Sharpshooternes]

Originally Posted by APG

9.1.3 Situation H

That is what I called. Talking about it afterward with this varsity official, he said that I should have a patient whistle on the defense and then just give the defense the ball back as A1 has the most egregious violation. He said it was rewarding the offense for the illegal activity by going to the jump ball.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

No. English is my first language. Why do you ask?

Maybe a Bunch of missing articles spots Where normally belong and some Misplaced capitalization.

I didn't really notice anything when I first read your post with such style not all that uncommon on informal internet message forums.

EDIT: Looks like you've cleaned it up now.

[Sharpshooternes]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Maybe a Bunch of missing articles spots Where normally belong and some Misplaced capitalization.

Like this one? I was just trying to cut down on unnecessary words to save the good people of this forum some time and I didn't really proof read it before I submitted it. I fixed it for you though Nevada.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

That is what I called. Talking about it afterward with this varsity official, he said that I should have a patient whistle on the defense and then just give the defense the ball back as A1 has the most egregious violation. He said it was rewarding the offense for the illegal activity by going to the jump ball.

Assuming 9.1.3H rules that it is a held ball, I can't agree with that varsity official. Both are equal violations. That is why is defined to be an AP situation. To give it to the defense ignores their violation entirely. That is a reward they didn't earn.

[Sharpshooternes]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I can't agree with that. Both had equal violations. That is why is defined to be an AP situation..

I said to him, "the rule states that...." He cut me off and said, "I don't give a s#|+ about what the rule says."
This really bothers me when these guys who have made it don't continue to read and relearn the rule. I am all about getting feedback. I constantly ask questions to varsity officials to get my name out there and be seen as a competent official. It is really frustrating when the feedback I get isn't even close to being right, all the time from all of the varsity officials. I have been tempted to just throw the rule book and call what they are all calling just to "fit in" but I don't want the time to happen when someone really important is watching and then just doing the wrong thing because everyone else is doing it.

[Sharpshooternes]

Here is the case play for those who don't have their books. It is situation b. And it definitely wasn't disconcertion.

9.1.3 SITUATION H:

While A1 is attempting a final free throw, (a) B1 enters the lane too soon followed by A2, both of whom are in marked lane spaces; or (b) B1, in a marked lane space enters the lane too soon, then shooter A1 steps on the free-throw line while releasing the throw.

RULING: In (a), the violation by A2 is ignored and, if the try is successful, the goal shall count and the violation by B1, shall be ignored. If the try is unsuccessful, the ball shall become dead when the free throw ends and a substitute free throw shall be attempted by A1 under the same conditions as those for the original free throw. In (b), a double violation is called and the ball is put in play using the alternating-possession procedure.

COMMENT: Anytime the defense violates first, followed by a violation by the free-throw shooter, the officials should consider the possibility of disconcertion. (9-1-4 Penalty)

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

I said to him, "the rule states that...." He cut me off and said, "I don't give a s#|+ about what the rule says."
This really bothers me when these guys who have made it don't continue to read and relearn the rule. I am all about getting feedback. I constantly ask questions to varsity officials to get my name out there and be seen as a competent official. It is really frustrating when the feedback I get isn't even close to being right, all the time from all of the varsity officials. I have been tempted to just throw the rule book and call what they are all calling just to "fit in" but I don't want the time to happen when someone really important is watching and then just doing the wrong thing because everyone else is doing it.

Yes, there are many both here in my area and on this board that make up their own stuff, sometimes in direct contradiction of clear rules, and for no good reason. Just resolve to not be one of them.

Made up rules and calls in the age of video don't really work any more. 20 years ago (even 10) , you could just about do what you wanted because there was never video (or it was too poor to see much). Now, there might be 10-20 HD quality cameras at any given moment in a game. You usually can't make up an OOB call to give it to the "right" team in order to avoid a foul. If it is really, really close, you might be able to get away with that still, but the days where that was easy to do are really gone.

The double violation in your case is pretty clear. It would be hard to ignore the first one and only tag the second one. What are you going to say to the coach who knows the rule? If you make something up, what are you going to say to your assignor when the coach asks him about it? There is no good answer other than doing it correctly.

As long as you don't go looking for silly stuff, calling these things as defined will not get you in trouble. When faced with officials that like to make up their own stuff, just smile and let them be. No use trying to change people that don't care about doing things right. That is what might cause you more grief than just getting the calls right.

While I may not always succeed, I try to always do things the right way. I'm also in a position as an instructor in my association to impress upon new officials the difference between the way things should be and the way they may sometimes see things done that are not correct. I suggest that they do things the right way for the right reasons rather than follow popular, even successful, officials who wing it.

Now, there are times when the "right" thing to do might be outside the book, but that is the exception, not the norm.

[Rob1968]

The coment at the end of the Case Book play, leans towards a substitute shot, in the scenario in question, if the shot is missed. That's quite the opposite of the opinion of the Varsity guy who tried to instruct you . . .

Sometimes I have to refer back to advice given to me by a truly wise mentor: "That a person can perform a particular task, does not mean that he/she can teach it!"

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

No. English is my first language. Why do you ask?

I didn't want to be insensitive to someone who may be asking a legitimate question, but was foreign and thus had some syntax problems and spelling errors in the post. Since you state that is not the case and you have corrected most of the OP, I'll only mention that "whistle" should be plural.
Now to your actual basketball question. If you consult the rules book, you will see that a second FT violation by the shooting team is only ignored if such occurs by a player in a marked lane space. Since the shooter is not located there, the official should properly penalize both violations.
I believe that Camron gave you excellent advice on how to deal with the uncaring veterans who lack rules knowledge. Just make the correct call according to the books and pass those people on your way up the ladder.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

That is what I called. Talking about it afterward with this varsity official, he said that I should have a patient whistle on the defense and then just give the defense the ball back as A1 has the most egregious violation. He said it was rewarding the offense for the illegal activity by going to the jump ball.

Smile and nod.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

The coment at the end of the Case Book play, leans towards a substitute shot, in the scenario in question, if the shot is missed. That's quite the opposite of the opinion of the Varsity guy who tried to instruct you . . .

Sometimes I have to refer back to advice given to me by a truly wise mentor: "That a person can perform a particular task, does not mean that he/she can teach it!"

It cannot be disconcertion if the defensive violation occurs after the shot is released. It's just not an option.