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[Raymond]

Originally Posted by just another ref

First, I don't think either of us will let the expectations of a coach be the deciding factor in anything. Second, I don't think of this as something that happens often enough to create an expectation. How many have you personally been involved in?

Twice, only once in a real game. It was my first year as a college official. Other official involved now refs mostly in the D-League.

The other time was in my 2nd or 3rd year as an official, in a local HS camp. It was just discussed in our morning meeting with the camp director (NCAA D1 official who started his career in my local association). It was clearly stated when to report a blarge.

But I have seen instances, mostly in camps or AAU ball, where conflicting signals were given and the coaches expected both fouls to be reported.

I didn't say coaches were the deciding factor, I asked where they learned this expectation. Because one thing is for sure, it is not officials who write the rules.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Dictionary definition of rule: to decide or declare judicially or authoritatively

This, to me, is a perfect description of this play, with the keyword being decide.
This decision results in the call, which is subsequently reported to the table.

A whistle or a signal is neither a ruling nor a call. Either may be done by accident. Not true with a ruling. In no other place in the rules does a signal obligate us to do anything. Why would it possibly do so here?

Originally Posted by just another ref

The ruling (decision) takes place in your head. It is immediately followed by a whistle and a signal to communicate this decision to others. This ruling (decision) can be changed before the call is reported, sometimes resulting in no call at all.

"My partner had granted a timeout before the foul."

Read the definition of the word rule that you posted. You focused on the wrong part of the definition.

If the official declares what they have, they have ruled, by your definition. Showing a signal is declaring what you have.

Well, that should settle that. Next topic.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

If the official declares what they have, they have ruled, by your definition. Showing a signal is declaring what you have.

There's no reason why, after gathering more information, one cannot change his ruling.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

There's no reason why, after gathering more information, one cannot change his ruling.

Absolutely true, in many play situations, but, for some reason, in this specific situation (blarge), the NFHS, according to this caseplay, doesn't want us to do that, and to stick with two decisions, one that is probably wrong.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Absolutely true, in many play situations, but, for some reason, in this specific situation (blarge), the NFHS, according to this caseplay, doesn't want us to do that, and to stick with two decisions, one that is probably wrong.

Probably wrong? If you report a block and a charge on the same contact one will always be wrong.

And have you not read the thread? This is exactly what the Director of Sports and Officials Education for the NFHS does not want you to do.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The casebook is clear about what to do when both fouls are reported. The question is whether both fouls must be reported when conflicting signals are given. The answer was no. But if you didn't understand the question, I suppose it is no surprise that you didn't understand the answer.

No, it says nothing about "reported" either (in the case play). The question is how is 'ruled' defined, and can you alter your ruling once you make it?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

There's no reason why, after gathering more information, one cannot change his ruling.

My follow up question would be simple at this point, since you have her attention.

Similar to bob's.

"To what situation does this case play refer?"

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

This is exactly what the Director of Sports and Officials Education for the NFHS does not want you to do.

... and the director publicizes rule interpretations through the Forum? Yeah, that will reach a wide audience, maybe several hundred, at the most?

[Raymond]

Can someone post the language from the NCAA-Women's rule/case play? I know the gist of the rule, primary takes the call. But I'm wondering what the "trigger" for the rule/case play is in their rule books.

IOW, what determines that 2 officials "ruled" or "called" conflicting fouls in the NCAA-Women's play?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Can someone post the language from the NCAA-Women's rule/case play? I know the gist of the rule, primary takes the call. But I'm wondering what the "trigger" for the rule/case play is in their rule books.

IOW, what determines that 2 officials "ruled" or "called" conflicting fouls in the NCAA-Women's play?

This reminds me: what's the wording in NCAAM?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Adam

This reminds me: what's the wording in NCAAM?

I can't find any in the current rule or case book.

Edit: thanks Bob, I searched for "calls player control" instead of "calls a player-control".

[bob jenkins]

NCAAW:

A.R. 161. A1 drives to the basket and:
1. The referee calls a player-control foul and an umpire calls a block; or
2. The referee calls a charge and an umpire calls a block.
RULING 1 and 2: When the officials signal simultaneously, they shall
get together and agree to give the call to the official who had the play
originate in his/her primary. When the officials disagree that the fouls
occurred simultaneously, they shall determine which foul occurred first.
Once a decision is reached, that foul is reported to the official scorer
and the appropriate penalty is assessed.
(Rule 4-5, 4-7, 4-15 and 4-17.1)

NCAAM:

A.R. 158. A1 drives to the basket and:
1. The referee calls a player-control foul and an umpire calls a block; or
2. The referee calls a charge and an umpire calls a block.
RULING: This is uncharacteristic of a double personal foul in which
two officials adjudicate the fouls differently against two opponents for
the same contact. In (1) and (2), the two officials disagree that the fouls
occurred simultaneously.
1: The ball shall be awarded to Team A, the team in control, at the
point of interruption with no reset of the shot clock.
(Rule 2-11.7.f, 7-3.1.d, 7-4.8 and 4-15.2.b)
2: The two officials disagree as to whether there was a charge or a
block, however, before contact occurred, the ball was released by
A1. Although there is no team control while a ball is in flight,
when the goal is successful, play shall resume at the point of
interruption by awarding the ball to Team B, the team not credited
with the score, at the end line with the privilege to run the end
line. When the try is not successful, play shall resume at the point
of interruption with the use of the alternating-possession arrow and
a reset of the shot clock.
(Rule 7-4.9)

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

NCAAW:

A.R. 161. A1 drives to the basket and:
1. The referee calls a player-control foul and an umpire calls a block; or
2. The referee calls a charge and an umpire calls a block.
RULING 1 and 2: When the officials signal simultaneously, they shall
get together and agree to give the call to the official who had the play
originate in his/her primary. When the officials disagree that the fouls
occurred simultaneously, they shall determine which foul occurred first.
Once a decision is reached, that foul is reported to the official scorer
and the appropriate penalty is assessed.
(Rule 4-5, 4-7, 4-15 and 4-17.1)

....

Hmmm, so in the ruleset that handles the situation the same way jar does, signaling is considered the deciding factor as to what the officials "ruled/called". So there is precedent for "officials' signals" to be the trigger of whether or not a blarge is in effect.

[asdf]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Actually, no mention is made of signals at all. There is no way to tell by reading this whether any preliminary signal was made by anyone.

So then, how the heck do we know that one called/ruled at block and one called/ruled a charge?

Did they both go to the table at he same time and report different fouls simultaneously.

In talking to a couple of old timers over the weekend who spent time on the committee.....

The CB play was published because at our level the potential for this to occur is much higher than at the NCAA level. They have never seen anyone interpret this in any other way than being a double foul.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Adam

No, it says nothing about "reported" either (in the case play). The question is how is 'ruled' defined, and can you alter your ruling once you make it?

1. We know the fouls were reported or we wouldn't need to know how to proceed from there.

2. This is a legitimate question.