E-mail to the top

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Can someone post the language from the NCAA-Women's rule/case play? I know the gist of the rule, primary takes the call. But I'm wondering what the "trigger" for the rule/case play is in their rule books.

IOW, what determines that 2 officials "ruled" or "called" conflicting fouls in the NCAA-Women's play?

This reminds me: what's the wording in NCAAM?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Adam

This reminds me: what's the wording in NCAAM?

I can't find any in the current rule or case book.

Edit: thanks Bob, I searched for "calls player control" instead of "calls a player-control".

[bob jenkins]

NCAAW:

A.R. 161. A1 drives to the basket and:
1. The referee calls a player-control foul and an umpire calls a block; or
2. The referee calls a charge and an umpire calls a block.
RULING 1 and 2: When the officials signal simultaneously, they shall
get together and agree to give the call to the official who had the play
originate in his/her primary. When the officials disagree that the fouls
occurred simultaneously, they shall determine which foul occurred first.
Once a decision is reached, that foul is reported to the official scorer
and the appropriate penalty is assessed.
(Rule 4-5, 4-7, 4-15 and 4-17.1)

NCAAM:

A.R. 158. A1 drives to the basket and:
1. The referee calls a player-control foul and an umpire calls a block; or
2. The referee calls a charge and an umpire calls a block.
RULING: This is uncharacteristic of a double personal foul in which
two officials adjudicate the fouls differently against two opponents for
the same contact. In (1) and (2), the two officials disagree that the fouls
occurred simultaneously.
1: The ball shall be awarded to Team A, the team in control, at the
point of interruption with no reset of the shot clock.
(Rule 2-11.7.f, 7-3.1.d, 7-4.8 and 4-15.2.b)
2: The two officials disagree as to whether there was a charge or a
block, however, before contact occurred, the ball was released by
A1. Although there is no team control while a ball is in flight,
when the goal is successful, play shall resume at the point of
interruption by awarding the ball to Team B, the team not credited
with the score, at the end line with the privilege to run the end
line. When the try is not successful, play shall resume at the point
of interruption with the use of the alternating-possession arrow and
a reset of the shot clock.
(Rule 7-4.9)

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

NCAAW:

A.R. 161. A1 drives to the basket and:
1. The referee calls a player-control foul and an umpire calls a block; or
2. The referee calls a charge and an umpire calls a block.
RULING 1 and 2: When the officials signal simultaneously, they shall
get together and agree to give the call to the official who had the play
originate in his/her primary. When the officials disagree that the fouls
occurred simultaneously, they shall determine which foul occurred first.
Once a decision is reached, that foul is reported to the official scorer
and the appropriate penalty is assessed.
(Rule 4-5, 4-7, 4-15 and 4-17.1)

....

Hmmm, so in the ruleset that handles the situation the same way jar does, signaling is considered the deciding factor as to what the officials "ruled/called". So there is precedent for "officials' signals" to be the trigger of whether or not a blarge is in effect.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Hmmm, so in the ruleset that handles the situation the same way jar does, signaling is considered the deciding factor as to what the officials "ruled/called". So there is precedent for "officials' signals" to be the trigger of whether or not a blarge is in effect.

True, good point. But this case says "simultaneous signals", rather than "conflicting signals" or "opposite signals." A fist in the air is also a signal. According to this wording, even if both officials have just a fist they should still get together.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by just another ref

True, good point. But this case says "simultaneous signals", rather than "conflicting signals" or "opposite signals." A fist in the air is also a signal. According to this wording, even if both officials have just a fist they should still get together.

So you take the case ruling to mean that every time 2 officials have a fist in the air they are to get together and determine the call?

In the case ruling bob cited, you're saying the officials telepathically knew they that one was calling a PC and the other a Block?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

So you take the case ruling to mean that every time 2 officials have a fist in the air they are to get together and determine the call?

If necessary, they can. Usually, when two experienced officials have a fist in the air the communication consists of one walking away, thus yielding to the other.

In the case ruling bob cited, you're saying the officials telepathically knew they that one was calling a PC and the other a Block?

No, I'm saying that no matter how they knew they have the right to confer. If you don't know, and the call is uncertain, ask:

"What have you got?"

Worst case scenario is this: I'm the L. I call/rule/signal a blocking foul near the corner. The call was obvious. The defender's own coach is screaming at him. I start toward the table to report. I see my rookie partner, who was the C, peering across the lane with one fist in the air and the other hand behind his head. But now we have no choice but to report his foul as well.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If necessary, they can. Usually, when two experienced officials have a fist in the air the communication consists of one walking away, thus yielding to the other.
...

So a fist up in the air doesn't indicate what each official ruled? I agree with that.

Based on the precedence in Bob's cite, I feel validated in my belief that preliminary signals are the indicator that the officials have "ruled/called" a block and PC/charge, and therefore both fouls need to be reported.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

No, I'm saying that no matter how they knew they have the right to confer. If you don't know, and the call is uncertain, ask:

"What have you got?"

Huh?

You think that we do not know what to call and result in a double foul based on this example?

Originally Posted by just another ref

Worst case scenario is this: I'm the L. I call/rule/signal a blocking foul near the corner. The call was obvious. The defender's own coach is screaming at him. I start toward the table to report. I see my rookie partner, who was the C, peering across the lane with one fist in the air and the other hand behind his head. But now we have no choice but to report his foul as well.

What? SMDH!!!

Peace