Playoff brawl (Video)

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by just another ref

First, as you say, based on the reaction of the player on the last possession, she was struck in the face. Did this occur before or after she stepped out of bounds?

I believe she was out first. While we can't see the line, we can see her step in the direction of the line just before before being hit in the face and not stepping any more that direction before the whistle. I think it is save to assume she was out first, just barely.

Originally Posted by just another ref

Second, do we penalize a player for becoming involved in an altercation with a fan when the fan is clearly the initial aggressor?

Yes. Unsportsmanlike behavior is unsportsmanlike behavior even if it is aimed towards a fan. It doesn't matter who starts it.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by Dexter555

From the news article: "All of the fans were forced to leave by local authorities, but the game’s officials did not assess any technical fouls or eject any players, despite the fact that punches were thrown and several Epps players left the bench to participate in the brawl."

So many questions pop into my head if I think about what I would have done:
- I want to say I'd have been noting jersey numbers for all players fighting and leaving bench. Given that it was instigated by the crowd, I think in conferencing I'd be open to not issuing Ts or ejections, but would be hard to convince me.
- After the gym is cleared, what is the discussion like on whether or not to continue the game/T's/ejections?
- It took 10 minutes to get it under control. Wearing stripes makes you a target from some knucklehead. Do you stay in the gym when the stands are emptying for a brawl?

Given the accounts, it seems this crew did about as well as they could. I commend them.

I pray none of us ever has to deal with this in any of our games!

As soon as the stands start emptying, I am on my way to the safest spot I can think of. If that means leaving the gym, I am gone. Diffusing/ending this type of brawl is the responsibility of game management, security, and local law enforcement. I will be nowhere near it. This makes your first part about getting numbers irrelevant. I most likely wont be there to get them. Once the gym is cleared, I would have no problem finishing the game.

The first year I officiated, I worked some games for a catholic grade school league. During a sixth grade game, we had a home player commit an intentional foul for excessive contact. We called the intentional foul, and the home coach removed the player and gave them a lecture on how their behavior was inappropriate. This apparently was not satisfactory to some fans from the visiting team who started saying some derogatory stuff about the home teams players and fans. Needless to say, an all out brawl started in the stands and spilled onto the court. My partner and I looked at each other, ran off the court to the cafeteria/concession stand, which was where we kept our stuff and waited for the police to come and take care of the problem. While we were in there, the home school AD came and asked us what we were going to do the breakup the fight in the gym. We both told him absolutely nothing and suggested he call the local police. They came and arrested a number of people, and we finished the game in an empty gym.

Last catholic grade school game I ever officiated.

[Sharpshooternes]

What was with the awesome switch after the foul call at 2:22 on the game clock?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by deecee

Really? What do you propose. A game in a stadium with barbed wire around the court

Why do you think that basketball players used to called "cagers"?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

What was with the awesome switch after the foul call at 2:22 on the game clock?

In Louisiana, the calling official goes opposite the table. It's in their manual that I was able to find with one Google search.

[j51969]

I am not familiar with either community, but this looks to me like the typical "white vs black community thing". Even if nothing happens on the court there always seems to be some drama that unfolds in the aftermath. You can't fix stupid, but for my money this is the most ridiculous thing in sports youth or otherwise.

Here is a recent incident from my home town in Indiana. These things will just never go away....

IHSAA investigating claims of racism at girls' semi-state game - 13 WTHR Indianapolis

Originally Posted by j51969

I am not familiar with either community, but this looks to me like the typical "white vs black community thing". Even if nothing happens on the court there always seems to be some drama that unfolds in the aftermath. You can't fix stupid, but for my money this is the most ridiculous thing in sports youth or otherwise.

Here is a recent incident from my home town in Indiana. These things will just never go away....

IHSAA investigating claims of racism at girls' semi-state game - 13 WTHR Indianapolis

Heh, that's not racism that's clever taunting. The gorilla suit was probably unintentional. Playoff sites are chosen before the season starts.

[j51969]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Heh, that's not racism that's clever taunting. The gorilla suit was probably unintentional. Playoff sites are chosen before the season starts.

My thoughts as well.

I'm not an African American, so I won't claim to understand how racism feels. But, it also seems that too often we have a solution in search of a problem. Wasn't there, and don't know the kids or the school. Maybe this was some sort of clever racist rouse. I went to Warren Central on the east side of Indy. Our moniker was a warrior. If students dressed up like actual warriors would they now have to apologize to all Native Americans? My feeling is the majority of these issues surround adults putting in their two cents were it doesn’t belong. Sometimes kids are just that kids. And then there’s this guy……

Racial Sensitivity 101 | Abdul | NUVO News | Indianapolis, IN

Who knows what the answer is. I doubt there is one………….

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by j51969

If students dressed up like actual warriors would they now have to apologize to all Native Americans?

Maybe. What do the native Americans in that area think about the school's nickname, logo, mascot, etc. Maybe they think that it celebrates, accurately, the native American heritage in that area, or maybe they think that it's not accurate (not all native Americans look, dress, act, etc., the same), and possibly downright offensive.

[JRutledge]

Sure it wasn't racism or had a racial issue. Yep. You guys go with that!!!

Peace

[BryanV21]

If a player does something that I deem unsportsmanlike, it gets penalized appropriately. It doesn't matter whether that unsportsmanlike act is directed towards another player, a coach, a fan, media member, etc.

Now, that doesn't mean I would stick around during a brawl to catch a player doing something wrong. Once that brawl starts I'm out of there, and game management can deal with it.

As for this situation specifically, I might be inclined to penalize the player for getting in the fan's face and escalating things. I've seen plenty of taunting from fans towards players, but that doesn't give the player the right to retaliate in any way.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Sure it wasn't racism or had a racial issue. Yep. You guys go with that!!!

Peace

Just because it could be doesn't mean it was. Neither you nor I have any idea if it really was or wasn't short of making assumptions not based in fact. If you're comfortable assuming conflicts between individuals of different races is based in racism, I feel very sorry for the life you live. I prefer to assume individuals of all races are innocent, honest, and meaning no ill will unless there is clear proof to the contrary.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Just because it could be doesn't mean it was. Neither you nor I have any idea if it really was or wasn't short of making assumptions not based in fact. If you're comfortable assuming conflicts between individuals of different races is based in racism, I feel very sorry for the life you live. I prefer to assume individuals of all races are innocent, honest, and meaning no ill will unless there is clear proof to the contrary.

And just because the AD or administrator says it was not the intention, does not mean there was not an intention. And based on other things said, I believe that was the motive.

I am also not assuming things, I know history and actions. Yes all of a sudden a "Safari theme?" OoooooooKaayyyyyyyy!!!!

Racism did not just all of a sudden go away because the President is not white. There are a lot of subtle things being said and done well outside of sports and you are not going to tell me that this was not the background.

I have been in enough situations where little subtle things are said or implied or suggested by the people that if you accuse them of something, they somehow "Well that is not what I meant" BS. And if you noticed it was more than the Gorilla suit, it was other comments stated by the players that were said to them. I do not expect anyone honestly who is not African-American to see the way many do that are African-American. BUt this is old hat for some of us and not a surprise that something like this happen. A lot of code wording used to make a point without thinking you will be found out. They were exposed and it would be better for the administrator to make sure it does not happen instead of making excuses.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And just because the AD or administrator says it was not the intention, does not mean there was not an intention. And based on other things said, I believe that was the motive.

I am also not assuming things, I know history and actions. Yes all of a sudden a "Safari theme?" OoooooooKaayyyyyyyy!!!!

Racism did not just all of a sudden go away because the President is not white. There are a lot of subtle things being said and done well outside of sports and you are not going to tell me that this was not the background.

I have been in enough situations where little subtle things are said or implied or suggested by the people that if you accuse them of something, they somehow "Well that is not what I meant" BS. And if you noticed it was more than the Gorilla suit, it was other comments stated by the players that were said to them. I do not expect anyone honestly who is not African-American to see the way many do that are African-American. BUt this is old hat for some of us and not a surprise that something like this happen. A lot of code wording used to make a point without thinking you will be found out. They were exposed and it would be better for the administrator to make sure it does not happen instead of making excuses.

Peace

You say you're not assuming things then go right on stating what you're assuming. Brilliant.

The most racist thing I've seen related to this incident is the assumption by some that whatever they did must have been racially motivated because they were white and other whites have done racist things in the past.

If the world were to use your standard, every person of any race would be a criminal if some people of that race committed a crime? Are you OK with that? Or isn't that really what you're trying to stop?

Again you must be miserable if you can only imagine that everything that could remotely be racial is racial and that everything that is said that you don't like must have racial overtones.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

You say you're not assuming things then go right on stating what you're assuming. Brilliant.

The most racist thing I've seen related to this incident is the assumption by some that whatever they did must have been racially motivated because they were white and other whites have done racist things in the past.

If the world were to use your standard, every person of any race would be a criminal if some people of that race committed a crime? Are you OK with that?

Again you must be miserable if you can only imagine that everything that could remotely be racial is racial and that everything that is said that you don't like must have racial overtones.

This is not about my standard. I have enough life experiences to know when people did not think fondly of you because of what race you are. I am sure I have been to more situations than many here where they were the "only one of their race" or you are not like the majority of the crowd or people in the building. I said this years ago, most African-Americans could go out of their way and avoid a lot of other African-Americans on a daily basis. It would be almost impossible to go to a place where there were no Caucasians. My point is many times I have been in situations where it is clear my or other's presence stands out, just as an official alone. It is very easy to pick up on when you are not wanted or people stereotype you for all kinds of things. Thinks like assume you know certain people. Thinks like assume you live in certain places. Assume you have all kinds of background experiences. And it is not unusual to have people say things with all those things in mind.

And most of all I am not asking for your approval of my position Camron. I really could give a damn if you see this my way or not. I feel that in this situation where sports and communities are different, that people know damn well what they are trying to say to people from those very different communities. Not saying everyone was involved, but you will not convince me that a few of them knew what they were saying or what message they wanted to get across to this team. Seen it enough and see it all the time where I live. We have a very diverse state and there are a lot of rural communities that do not have a lot of diversity and the minute they come to a place where there are more mixture, it is not uncommon to have problems or see an underlining feeling from certain groups of people (either way). And the 2A State Championship here had a lot of that in the crowd, on the message boards, with people that were at that game or not at that game.

Peace