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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 25, 2014, 05:56pm
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Found It ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
No, it's not. Such team members are considered not currently eligible. Why? Because there is a rule stating such.
8.2 SITUATION B: A1 is fouled and will be shooting two free throws. After A1ís
first free-throw attempt, B6 (Team Bís only remaining eligible substitute) replaces
B2. A1ís second free-throw attempt is unsuccessful. During rebounding action for
A1ís missed second free-throw attempt, and before the clock starts, A1 pushes B3
in the back causing B3 to roll an ankle. Team B is in the bonus. B3 is unable to
immediately continue playing. Team B requests and is granted a time out in order
to allow B3 to recover from the ankle injury so as to remain in the game. B3 is still
not able to play after the time out has ended. RULING: B2 may return to the game
and replace B3 and shoot B3ís free throw attempts despite having been replaced
since he/she is the only available substitute. (3-3-4)
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 25, 2014, 05:59pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j51969 View Post
If he wasn't eligible why did he put them in the book?
Maybe the player did/said something stupid during the game and got himself kicked off. If the coach says he's ineligible, he's ineligible. I'm not going to second guess that.

I'm also, however, not going to suggest that in a situation like was presented.
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Old Tue Feb 25, 2014, 06:01pm
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Don't Have To Sit A Tick Exceptions ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Similar exception for untucked jersey. Right? How about blood on a uniform?
How about these two situations?
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 25, 2014, 06:02pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I could have sworn that getting down to five players was one of the few exceptions to the "sit a tick" rule. Are you sure about this Nevadaref?

If my memory serves me, and it usually doesn't, the play involved a free throw. Team A has six eligible players. Before B1 shoots the first of a one and one, A6 substitutes for A1. B1 makes the first free throw, but while attempting to get a rebound, A2 is injured and can no longer participate. A1, who hasn't "sat a tick" (the clock never started) reports to replace the injured A2. I could have sworn that the substitution for the injured player was allowed because "playing with five trumps sitting a tick".

I would appreciate further discussion on this, hopefully with some closure.
You are correct Billy. The NFHS posted a ruling saying that the requirement that 5 play supersedes the rule requiring a sub to sit out a tick of the clock....and it is logical too, imagine that.

The sit-a-tick rule is to address a specific situation and has exceptions when it conflicts with other rules.
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Old Wed Feb 26, 2014, 02:27am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I could have sworn that getting down to five players was one of the few exceptions to the "sit a tick" rule. Are you sure about this Nevadaref?

If my memory serves me, and it usually doesn't, the play involved a free throw. Team A has six eligible players. Before B1 shoots the first of a one and one, A6 substitutes for A1. B1 makes the first free throw, but while attempting to get a rebound, A2 is injured and can no longer participate. A1, who hasn't "sat a tick" (the clock never started) reports to replace the injured A2. I could have sworn that the substitution for the injured player was allowed because "playing with five trumps sitting a tick".

I would appreciate further discussion on this, hopefully with some closure.
No rule ever trumps another! The rules work together, not in conflict with each other.
You recall the Case Book play correctly. It was also MTD's argument when submitting it that the provision to play with five should "trump" the substitution rule requiring a just exited team member to not return until after the clock has properly started. Unfortunately, the NFHS rules editor at the time bought his silliness because she was never a strong rules person.

The correct ruling is that this is one of the times when a team temporarily plays with fewer than five. At the next stoppage in play after the clock has run either team member would be eligible to enter. I refer you to the asthma attack interp which predates MTD's case play.

SITUATION 9: Team A is playing with five players, but has no substitutes available when one of the players has an asthma attack. The coach is beckoned onto the floor. Must the player leave the game? May Team A continue with four players? May the player return after recovering from the asthma attack? RULING: A team may continue with fewer than five when there are no substitutes available. The injured/ill player leaving the game may return if/when he or she is able. (3-1-i)

Last edited by Nevadaref; Wed Feb 26, 2014 at 02:44am.
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Old Wed Feb 26, 2014, 03:41am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
No rule ever trumps another! The rules work together, not in conflict with each other.
You recall the Case Book play correctly. It was also MTD's argument when submitting it that the provision to play with five should "trump" the substitution rule requiring a just exited team member to not return until after the clock has properly started. Unfortunately, the NFHS rules editor at the time bought his silliness because she was never a strong rules person.

The correct ruling is that this is one of the times when a team temporarily plays with fewer than five. At the next stoppage in play after the clock has run either team member would be eligible to enter. I refer you to the asthma attack interp which predates MTD's case play.

SITUATION 9: Team A is playing with five players, but has no substitutes available when one of the players has an asthma attack. The coach is beckoned onto the floor. Must the player leave the game? May Team A continue with four players? May the player return after recovering from the asthma attack? RULING: A team may continue with fewer than five when there are no substitutes available. The injured/ill player leaving the game may return if/when he or she is able. (3-1-i)
May continue with less than 5 and must continue with less than 5 are not the same.

Your assertion puts the sit-a-tick rule over the 5-players rule if there 5 eligible players. The substitution rule doesn't change a player's eligibility. Eligibility in this case is referring to disqualfications/injuries. Either way you go, one trumps the other.

In fact, the very situation you cite above says they may return when he or she is able. It places no restriction on when he/she may return. It doesn't say he or she may return at the next opportunity after the clock has run. It says when able...that might be right away, perhaps after a couple of FTs and before the clock has started.

The whole point of the substitution rule is not about making a team play with 4, it is to prevent from voluntarily taking someone out and putting them back in by choice. It is intended to speed up the game around FTs by preventing a revolving door after every FT depending on if they are made ore not (1+1, and actually 2 or 3 since that rule predates the rule on only allowing subs before the possible last shot).
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Last edited by Camron Rust; Wed Feb 26, 2014 at 03:45am.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 26, 2014, 06:49am
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All a matter of opinion Camron.
Just like the play ruling from Mary and MTD.

The crux is: How is the team member who just subbed out to be classified?
I have him as currently ineligible to enter. Why? Because there is a rule which says so. The team just burned him when it decided to take him out. This would be the same is he was directed to the bench for wearing his uniform improperly or for blood. He can't play right now. He has to wait and come back later.

The NFHS rules allow for a team to temporarily play with fewer than five when there aren't any available subs. So there is no conflict here and no trumping of one rule by another. You simply enforce both. It's no big deal.

Question for our baseball guys: what happens if a team uses all of its substitutes and then a player suffers a serious injury?
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 26, 2014, 07:18am
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Exceptions To The Rule ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
How is the team member who just subbed out to be classified? I have him as currently ineligible to enter.
In general, this is certainly true, but there are exceptions (casebook play). These exceptions are few, and far between, but they do happen, and a good official needs to be aware of them.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 26, 2014, 09:03am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
All a matter of opinion Camron.
Just like the play ruling from Mary and MTD.

The crux is: How is the team member who just subbed out to be classified?
I have him as currently ineligible to enter. Why? Because there is a rule which says so. The team just burned him when it decided to take him out. This would be the same is he was directed to the bench for wearing his uniform improperly or for blood. He can't play right now. He has to wait and come back later.

The NFHS rules allow for a team to temporarily play with fewer than five when there aren't any available subs. So there is no conflict here and no trumping of one rule by another. You simply enforce both. It's no big deal.

Question for our baseball guys: what happens if a team uses all of its substitutes and then a player suffers a serious injury?
In FED, they play with 8, and it's an out when that spot comes up.

If they get to 7, or in other codes, it's a forfeit (although the specific timing might vary based on whether the injury was on offense or defense)
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 26, 2014, 09:11am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
May continue with less than 5 and must continue with less than 5 are not the same.

Your assertion puts the sit-a-tick rule over the 5-players rule if there 5 eligible players. The substitution rule doesn't change a player's eligibility. Eligibility in this case is referring to disqualfications/injuries. Either way you go, one trumps the other.
While I agree that we should go with 5 when it conflicts, I disagree with this last statement. Substitution rules do affect eligibility, momentarily. Another example is with who is an eligible substitute for technical foul FTs.
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