Foul During AP Throw-In

[Gargil]

At a Varsity boys game last night near the end of a close
game there was a held ball tie up which resulted in an AP throw-in. After the official handed the ball to A1, A2 was fouled before A1 ever released the ball. The officials met at the table and changed the arrow to team B. I thought under 4-42-5 that the throw-in does not end until the ball is legally touched, therefore the arrow should have stayed with team A. Am I correct?? The official said that the throw-in ended when he hands the ball to the thrower.

[CountTheBasket]

4-42

ART. 5

The throw-in ends when:

a. The passed ball touches or is legally touched by another player inbounds.

b. The passed ball touches or is touched by another player out of bounds, except as in 7-5-7.

c. The throw-in team commits a throw-in violation.


6-4

ART. 4

The direction of the possession arrow is reversed immediately after an alternating-possession throw-in ends. An alternating-possession throw-in ends when the throw-in ends as in 4-42-5.

[Raymond]

I hope this was a regular season game, and that this official will not be working any postseason games.

TI ends when legally touched or the throw-in team violates. And if Team A had committed the foul, the arrow also would have stayed with A.

So you are right.

[Gargil]

It was for the conference championship and there was not another AP throw-in so it did not affect the outcome of the game, but it sure could have.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I hope this was a regular season game, and that this official will not be working any postseason games.

TI ends when legally touched or the throw-in team violates. And if Team A had committed the foul, the arrow also would have stayed with A.

So you are right.

I'm out of that hope.

[scrounge]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I hope this was a regular season game, and that this official will not be working any postseason games.

TI ends when legally touched or the throw-in team violates. And if Team A had committed the foul, the arrow also would have stayed with A.

So you are right.

I thought if A committed a violation on their throw-in that they indeed would lose the arrow. Would this be the applicable case play?

6.4.5 SITUATION A:

Team A is awarded the ball for a throw-in under the alternating procedure. A1 commits a violation.


RULING: B's ball for a throw-in because of the violation. In addition, the possession arrow is reversed and is pointed towards B's basket. Team B will have the next throw-in opportunity under the alternating *procedure. Team A has lost its opportunity by virtue of the violation. A violation by Team A during an alternating-possession throw-in is the only way a team loses its turn under the procedure.

COMMENT: If a foul by either team occurs before an alternating-possession throw-in ends, the foul is penalized as required and play continues as it *normally would, but the possession arrow is not reversed. The same team will still have the arrow for the next alternating-possession throw-in. The arrow is reversed when an alternating-possession throw-in ends. (6-4-4)

*******************************************

EDITED TO ADD: Never mind, violation <> foul. Doh.

[CountTheBasket]

Originally Posted by scrounge

I thought if A committed a violation on their throw-in that they indeed would lose the arrow.

I'm not sure if this was added later or not, but what it prevents is team A getting a throw in via AP arrow with 1.3 secs left in a quarter and then just taking a 5 sec so they can try and start the next quarter with the ball. You can imagine the disaster that would lead to...

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by Gargil

The official said that the throw-in ended when he hands the ball to the thrower.

I am impressed the official was able to say this with a straight face.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by Gargil

It was for the conference championship and there was not another AP throw-in so it did not affect the outcome of the game, but it sure could have.

Conference championship game and this guy is the best official the assignor can come up with? I too would be out of hope if this happened in any of the leagues I work in.

[Sharpshooternes]

Originally Posted by Gargil

Am I correct?? The official said that the throw-in ended when he hands the ball to the thrower.

You are correct. He's a moron.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by CountTheBasket

I'm not sure if this was added later or not, but what it prevents is team A getting a throw in via AP arrow with 1.3 secs left in a quarter and then just taking a 5 sec so they can try and start the next quarter with the ball. You can imagine the disaster that would lead to...

I think disaster would be a bit strong for this.

[Toren]

This same thing happened earlier this year to me, except Team A committed a team control foul.

The R on the game wanted to change the arrow, I told him it remains because the throw end didn't end. For some reason my partner didn't believe me and asked my other partner...who told him it should be reversed

At this point, he decides he does believe me and leaves the arrow the same. We discussed after the game and I showed them the rules that govern the ruling.

My 2 partners are well respected and good play callers. I would work any game with them, but I just know I better brush up on my rules before we do

[Rich]

We could go an entire season without having to really know some of the more detailed rules of the game.

Or something could happen right in front of us the next play that requires us to recall a rule.

Thing that drove this home for me was at an association meeting earlier this season when a lot of people didn't really know the rules regarding players leaving the bench and participating or not participating in a fight. I think maybe 1 person in the room had had a bench-clearing fight situation in the past and it was years prior.

So I started thinking about it -- wouldn't that be the absolute worst time for you to have to worry about not knowing the rules or the penalty application -- just after there was a bench-clearing situation?

This one should be easy for a varsity crew, but the OP proves that it wasn't - at least for that one.

[CountTheBasket]

Originally Posted by Adam

I think disaster would be a bit strong for this.

The disaster I was implying was the teams holding for 5 sec violations back and forth and back and forth...

[johnny d]

Rich, I understand what you are saying. I agree, things like the fight rules that might only happen once in a career could be tough to know. Granted a foul by the throw in team doesn't occur often, but there are multiple throw ins every game. There is no excuse to not know when a throw in ends. I would put this in the basic knowledge category.