Foul During AP Throw-In

[Rich]

Originally Posted by johnny d

Rich, I understand what you are saying. I agree, things like the fight rules that might only happen once in a career could be tough to know. Granted a foul by the throw in team doesn't occur often, but there are multiple throw ins every game. There is no excuse to know when a throw in ends. I would put this in the basic knowledge category.

It's when an AP throw-in ends, though. And 95%+ of them end when the ball's touched on the floor.

[Gargil]

Originally Posted by CountTheBasket

The disaster I was implying was the teams holding for 5 sec violations back and forth and back and forth...

This could happen if the rule has no exceptions. Is there an exception?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Gargil

This could happen if the rule has no exceptions. Is there an exception?

He's suggesting a what-if scenario. As in, what if the rule were different than it is now?

As it is now, a 5 second violation causes the arrow to switch.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Adam

He's suggesting a what-if scenario. As in, what if the rule were different than it is now?

As it is now, a 5 second violation causes the arrow to switch.

There is still a way for team A to avoid being forced to consume the arrow as in his scenario....

A1, making an AP throwin, could throw the ball to A2 who kicks the ball. It is not a throw-in violation and the arrow doesn't switch due to the throwin not being legally touched.

B's ball for the kicking violation. Time Expires. A gets the throwin to start the next quarter.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

There is still a way for team A to avoid being forced to consume the arrow as in his scenario....

A1, making an AP throwin, could throw the ball to A2 who kicks the ball. It is not a throw-in violation and the arrow doesn't switch due to the throwin not being legally touched.

B's ball for the kicking violation. Time Expires. A gets the throwin to start the next quarter.

Is it a throw in violation that switches it? Or is it a violation by the throw in team? (My book is at home, I am not.)

[Adam]

Originally Posted by CountTheBasket

The disaster I was implying was the teams holding for 5 sec violations back and forth and back and forth...

Wouldn't happen. If A commits a 5 second violation (under your hypothetical situation where the arrow did not change following a throw in violation), B's ensuing throw in would not be an AP throw in, so B would have no incentive to do the same thing.

[CountTheBasket]

Originally Posted by Adam

Wouldn't happen. If A commits a 5 second violation (under your hypothetical situation where the arrow did not change following a throw in violation), B's ensuing throw in would not be an AP throw in, so B would have no incentive to do the same thing.

Fellas I was just responding to an early comment/question about the violation switching the arrow, stating the reason they may have added the exception was to avoid a scenario where A took the violation to get the ball to start the next half--and then making a joke about them violating back and forth. However, you are correct Adam and found a flaw in my hypothetical loop hole-well played.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by Adam

Is it a throw in violation that switches it? Or is it a violation by the throw in team? (My book is at home, I am not.)

Per the wording of the rule and case book play it is a violation by the throw-in team. I take that to mean any violation.

6-4-5
The opportunity to make an alternating-possession throw-in is lost if the throw-in team violates. If either team fouls during an alternating-possession throw-in, it does not cause the throw-in team to lose the possession arrow. If an opponent commits a violation during the throw-in, the possession arrow is postponed.

6.4.5 SITUATION A:

Team A is awarded the ball for a throw-in under the alternating procedure. A1 commits a violation.

RULING: B's ball for a throw-in because of the violation. In addition, the possession arrow is reversed and is pointed towards B's basket. Team B will have the next throw-in opportunity under the alternating *procedure. Team A has lost its opportunity by virtue of the violation. A violation by Team A during an alternating-possession throw-in is the only way a team loses its turn under the procedure.

COMMENT: If a foul by either team occurs before an alternating-possession throw-in ends, the foul is penalized as required and play continues as it *normally would, but the possession arrow is not reversed. The same team will still have the arrow for the next alternating-possession throw-in. The arrow is reversed when an alternating-possession throw-in ends. (6-4-4)

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

There is still a way for team A to avoid being forced to consume the arrow as in his scenario....

A1, making an AP throwin, could throw the ball to A2 who kicks the ball. It is not a throw-in violation and the arrow doesn't switch due to the throwin not being legally touched.

B's ball for the kicking violation. Time Expires. A gets the throwin to start the next quarter.

Not true. Any violation by the throwing team DURING the throw-in results in the AP arrow switching.
However, you are right that there is a way to preserve the arrow for later, if the team so desires--simply foul during the throw-in!

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Not true. Any violation by the throwing team DURING the throw-in results in the AP arrow switching.
However, you are right that there is a way to preserve the arrow for later, if the team so desires--simply foul during the throw-in!

It would be a good time for a Book T if one was coming anyway.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Adam

It would be a good time for a Book T if one was coming anyway.

True, but that would result in giving up FTs.
Here is what I had in mind: A held ball is called with 0.2 seconds remaining in the 2nd quarter. Team A has the arrow and throw-in would be from near the division line. Team A only has five team fouls. A smart coaching move would be to put in a sub from the end of the bench and have him foul an opponent during the throw-in. Team A would then keep the arrow for the start of the 3rd qtr and Team B could only score on a tap on the final possession of the 2nd qtr.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

True, but that would result in giving up FTs.
Here is what I had in mind: A held ball is called with 0.2 seconds remaining in the 2nd quarter. Team A has the arrow and throw-in would be from near the division line. Team A only has five team fouls. A smart coaching move would be to put in a sub from the end of the bench and have him foul an opponent during the throw-in. Team A would then keep the arrow for the start of the 3rd qtr and Team B could only score on a tap on the final possession of the 2nd qtr.

Great strategy, but it would require A12 to know how to foul here. A bad screen would be perfect. Then of course make sure the officials know the rule.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Adam

Great strategy, but it would require A12 to know how to foul here. A bad screen would be perfect. Then of course make sure the officials know the rule.

I also just realized that it would be a team control foul, so this could even be done with Team A having already committed 10 fouls in the first half.
Too many years under the old "neither team is in control during a throw-in" fundamental.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Not true. Any violation by the throwing team DURING the throw-in results in the AP arrow switching.
However, you are right that there is a way to preserve the arrow for later, if the team so desires--simply foul during the throw-in!

You are correct. I was looking at ART 4 of the AP rule that is about reversing the arrow when the throwin ends (which then refers to 4-42-5 about how a throwin ends) but ART 5 covers all violations.


The fouling case is not a freebie as it counts toward the team fouls. In most games, a foul at the end of the quarter (1st and 3rd) would likely be before the bonus and it would probably resulting in giving the other team bonus FTs sooner than they would have received them. Is a possession worth 2 FTs (on a later foul)?

I guess their only resort might be to entice the other team into some sort of infraction.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by Adam

Great strategy, but it would require A12 to know how to foul here. A bad screen would be perfect. Then of course make sure the officials know the rule.

He could simply push the defender away in order to get open. Couldn't he?