Foul During AP Throw-In

[CountTheBasket]

Originally Posted by scrounge

I thought if A committed a violation on their throw-in that they indeed would lose the arrow.

I'm not sure if this was added later or not, but what it prevents is team A getting a throw in via AP arrow with 1.3 secs left in a quarter and then just taking a 5 sec so they can try and start the next quarter with the ball. You can imagine the disaster that would lead to...

[Adam]

Originally Posted by CountTheBasket

I'm not sure if this was added later or not, but what it prevents is team A getting a throw in via AP arrow with 1.3 secs left in a quarter and then just taking a 5 sec so they can try and start the next quarter with the ball. You can imagine the disaster that would lead to...

I think disaster would be a bit strong for this.

[Toren]

This same thing happened earlier this year to me, except Team A committed a team control foul.

The R on the game wanted to change the arrow, I told him it remains because the throw end didn't end. For some reason my partner didn't believe me and asked my other partner...who told him it should be reversed

At this point, he decides he does believe me and leaves the arrow the same. We discussed after the game and I showed them the rules that govern the ruling.

My 2 partners are well respected and good play callers. I would work any game with them, but I just know I better brush up on my rules before we do

[Rich]

We could go an entire season without having to really know some of the more detailed rules of the game.

Or something could happen right in front of us the next play that requires us to recall a rule.

Thing that drove this home for me was at an association meeting earlier this season when a lot of people didn't really know the rules regarding players leaving the bench and participating or not participating in a fight. I think maybe 1 person in the room had had a bench-clearing fight situation in the past and it was years prior.

So I started thinking about it -- wouldn't that be the absolute worst time for you to have to worry about not knowing the rules or the penalty application -- just after there was a bench-clearing situation?

This one should be easy for a varsity crew, but the OP proves that it wasn't - at least for that one.

[CountTheBasket]

Originally Posted by Adam

I think disaster would be a bit strong for this.

The disaster I was implying was the teams holding for 5 sec violations back and forth and back and forth...

[johnny d]

Rich, I understand what you are saying. I agree, things like the fight rules that might only happen once in a career could be tough to know. Granted a foul by the throw in team doesn't occur often, but there are multiple throw ins every game. There is no excuse to not know when a throw in ends. I would put this in the basic knowledge category.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by johnny d

Rich, I understand what you are saying. I agree, things like the fight rules that might only happen once in a career could be tough to know. Granted a foul by the throw in team doesn't occur often, but there are multiple throw ins every game. There is no excuse to know when a throw in ends. I would put this in the basic knowledge category.

It's when an AP throw-in ends, though. And 95%+ of them end when the ball's touched on the floor.

[Gargil]

Originally Posted by CountTheBasket

The disaster I was implying was the teams holding for 5 sec violations back and forth and back and forth...

This could happen if the rule has no exceptions. Is there an exception?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Gargil

This could happen if the rule has no exceptions. Is there an exception?

He's suggesting a what-if scenario. As in, what if the rule were different than it is now?

As it is now, a 5 second violation causes the arrow to switch.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Adam

He's suggesting a what-if scenario. As in, what if the rule were different than it is now?

As it is now, a 5 second violation causes the arrow to switch.

There is still a way for team A to avoid being forced to consume the arrow as in his scenario....

A1, making an AP throwin, could throw the ball to A2 who kicks the ball. It is not a throw-in violation and the arrow doesn't switch due to the throwin not being legally touched.

B's ball for the kicking violation. Time Expires. A gets the throwin to start the next quarter.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

There is still a way for team A to avoid being forced to consume the arrow as in his scenario....

A1, making an AP throwin, could throw the ball to A2 who kicks the ball. It is not a throw-in violation and the arrow doesn't switch due to the throwin not being legally touched.

B's ball for the kicking violation. Time Expires. A gets the throwin to start the next quarter.

Is it a throw in violation that switches it? Or is it a violation by the throw in team? (My book is at home, I am not.)

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

There is still a way for team A to avoid being forced to consume the arrow as in his scenario....

A1, making an AP throwin, could throw the ball to A2 who kicks the ball. It is not a throw-in violation and the arrow doesn't switch due to the throwin not being legally touched.

B's ball for the kicking violation. Time Expires. A gets the throwin to start the next quarter.

Not true. Any violation by the throwing team DURING the throw-in results in the AP arrow switching.
However, you are right that there is a way to preserve the arrow for later, if the team so desires--simply foul during the throw-in!

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by Adam

Is it a throw in violation that switches it? Or is it a violation by the throw in team? (My book is at home, I am not.)

Per the wording of the rule and case book play it is a violation by the throw-in team. I take that to mean any violation.

6-4-5
The opportunity to make an alternating-possession throw-in is lost if the throw-in team violates. If either team fouls during an alternating-possession throw-in, it does not cause the throw-in team to lose the possession arrow. If an opponent commits a violation during the throw-in, the possession arrow is postponed.

6.4.5 SITUATION A:

Team A is awarded the ball for a throw-in under the alternating procedure. A1 commits a violation.

RULING: B's ball for a throw-in because of the violation. In addition, the possession arrow is reversed and is pointed towards B's basket. Team B will have the next throw-in opportunity under the alternating *procedure. Team A has lost its opportunity by virtue of the violation. A violation by Team A during an alternating-possession throw-in is the only way a team loses its turn under the procedure.

COMMENT: If a foul by either team occurs before an alternating-possession throw-in ends, the foul is penalized as required and play continues as it *normally would, but the possession arrow is not reversed. The same team will still have the arrow for the next alternating-possession throw-in. The arrow is reversed when an alternating-possession throw-in ends. (6-4-4)

[Adam]

Originally Posted by CountTheBasket

The disaster I was implying was the teams holding for 5 sec violations back and forth and back and forth...

Wouldn't happen. If A commits a 5 second violation (under your hypothetical situation where the arrow did not change following a throw in violation), B's ensuing throw in would not be an AP throw in, so B would have no incentive to do the same thing.

[CountTheBasket]

Originally Posted by Adam

Wouldn't happen. If A commits a 5 second violation (under your hypothetical situation where the arrow did not change following a throw in violation), B's ensuing throw in would not be an AP throw in, so B would have no incentive to do the same thing.

Fellas I was just responding to an early comment/question about the violation switching the arrow, stating the reason they may have added the exception was to avoid a scenario where A took the violation to get the ball to start the next half--and then making a joke about them violating back and forth. However, you are correct Adam and found a flaw in my hypothetical loop hole-well played.