No One Saw The Ball Go In

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Actually, this could be either a correctable error or a bookkeeping mistake.

If the try or thrown ball was from beyond the arc and the officials have knowledge of that fact, then one of them should have signaled for 3pts when the ball went in. The complication is the fact that none of the officials observed the ball enter the basket. The failure of an official to properly signal and award three points would be a CE and it is still within the proper timeframe to handle.

If none of the officials observed from where the ball was thrown, then the proper amount of points to award is only two and this means that the scorer has made an error by awarding the extra point on his own without the proper signal from the game officials. This is a bookkeeping error and can be corrected at any point under the jurisdiction of the officials ends.

If two of the officials were certain the ball was thrown from behind the arc but none actually saw the ball go in, I've got a bookkeeping error if it's determined later that the ball did not go in.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Adam

If two of the officials were certain the ball was thrown from behind the arc but none actually saw the ball go in, I've got a bookkeeping error if it's determined later that the ball did not go in.

The officials permitting the throw-in without any signal or whistle is what they normally do following a successful 2pt goal. That seems to be the officials improperly awarding a score to me.

If it is later determined that the ball did not go in, then I would use the CE timeframe for correcting it and removing the points. If this has passed, then the 2pts must stand.

In that scenario, the only part which could be ruled a bookkeeping mistake is the scorer crediting 3pts instead of two. That could and should be changed at any future point in the game.

[BillyMac]

Twice, in my career, I've had something odd like this happen to me, both times when I was in the lead position, keeping my eyes down, observing the rebounders, like I'm supposed to. Luckily, both times, my partner, the trail, helped me out.

First time, as the lead, I see, with my peripheral vision, the net wiggle, and then the ball goes out of bounds on the endline. I assumed that the ball went in. A player from the nonshooting team picks up the ball and looks oddly at me, and I motion him to just make his throwin, which he does. My partner, the old trail, sounds his whistle to tell me that that ball didn't go in the basket, it just whipped the bottom of the net on its way out of bounds.

Second time, again as the lead, a long distance shot just goes out of bounds on my endline, and I sound my whistle and make the out of bounds call. My partner now comes to me and asks me why I sounded my whistle on a made basket. He said that the net was so loose that it didn't move a bit as the ball just shot right through it.

[BillyMac]

This happened last week. I got distracted, didn't do what I was supposed to do, and, thus, I was a bad partner.

I'm the trail, and the ball handler comes from my primary and gets hammered, in the act of shooting, and falls down, near the free throw line. I sound my whistle for the foul, and then hear, a split second later, faintly, my partner's whistle from the lead. Around here, we usually let the lead take double "fist" whistles, but because my whistle was noticeably earlier, and louder, than his, I figure that he's going to give me the call, but he doesn't, and comes out strong with his preliminary signals, so I go into my noncalling mode and identify the shooter, who is in a pile of players, on the floor, at the free throw line.

As he moves toward the reporting area he stops, and asks me, while I'm still at my trail position, "Who was the foul on, and did the ball go in?". Since I was in my noncalling mode, all I could tell him was, "34 is the shooter". Because I was distracted by the double whistle, my surprise that he took the call, and with a pile of players, possibly injured, on the floor, I had failed to not only remember who the fouler was, I had also forgotten about my responsibility, as the trail, to observe if the ball went in, or didn't go in.

All I could tell him was that maybe the table could help in out with both questions, and luckily, they were able to answer both questions for him (the ball went in).

I gave up trying to remember both the fouler, and the foulee, many years ago after screwing up by switching the numbers around many times in the early part of many career (my brain just can't do it, seriously). So I'm not really upset with myself about that part. I'm really upset at myself that I failed, as the trail to see if the ball went in, or didn't go in. That's my job, and I failed miserably at it. I was not good partner in that game.

[Mechanicsman]

Hold on. This was a lob pass, not a try. It doesn't matter where it came from. It should be 2 or 0 not 3 or 0.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mechanicsman

Hold on. This was a lob pass, not a try. It doesn't matter where it came from. It should be 2 or 0 not 3 or 0.

Didn't that rule change about fifteen years ago?

[Rich1]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Didn't that rule change about fifteen years ago?

See casebook 5.2.1 b

It doesn't matter if it was a shot or a pass, a ball "thrown" from behind a teams own 3-point arc thst enters their own goal is worth 3 points. On a side note, if this occured at the wrong basket, even if a player purposefully (assume accidentally) shot at the wrong goal it can only be counted as 2 points.

[onetime1]

Originally Posted by Mechanicsman

Hold on. This was a lob pass, not a try. It doesn't matter where it came from. It should be 2 or 0 not 3 or 0.

How can 1 determine a players correct form of a shot or pass?

[Rich1]

Adam -

If they had definite knowledge of where the ball originated then I have no problem with your post. But if they do not (no one indicated the three was good so I was not thinking they didn't although they could come to that conclusion in discussion) then I think they have to go with only two.

Onetime & Mechanicsman -

It doesn't matter either way. If the ball went in THEIR basket from behind THEIR arc it is a three regardless if it was a beautiful shot, ugly shot, pass, or otherwise. Nothing in the case play or rule book indicates it had to be a try, only that it has to meet the criteria above.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by onetime1

How can 1 determine a players correct form of a shot or pass?

Just like they do when a player is fouled but unable to release the ball (or the ball gets knocked away). Shooting or passing? You must use judgement based on what it looks like and what they were likely trying to do.

[frezer11]

Originally Posted by Adam

If two of the officials were certain the ball was thrown from behind the arc but none actually saw the ball go in, I've got a bookkeeping error if it's determined later that the ball did not go in.

It seems to me, and Spence, maybe you can confirm or deny the meaning in the OP, but the issue is not whether it went in or not (even though no one actually saw it go in.). The issue is whether it went in on the pass, or was tipped in on the lob attempt. From the reaction of all the players, I think its reasonable to assume the ball entered the hoop in some fasion. But was it tipped in by the offensive player going up for the lob pass?