NFHS 2-10 Correctable Errors

[Ref16]

I just recieved a phone call regarding this situation and thought it would be a good one to post on here if for no other reason than to keep the subject fresh on the mind.

Young kids game, 2 man crew. One newer official and one who is a varsity ref that has been calling ball for about 10 years. Younger official is at trail and vet is at lead. Team A shoots the ball, it hits the back of the rim and bounces up and hits one of the supporting beams of the goal-and then goes in the basket. The trail doesn't blow his whistle and the lead has no idea it hit the support. Team B inbounds the ball immediately and is subsequently trapped just shy of the 3 point line in the backcourt. The coach from team A is raising hell and the scores table blows the horn several times in succession which triggers whistles from both officials. The vet goes to his partner, who doesn't know what is happening-then to the coach from team A who is pleading her case that the ball hit the support and the bucket should not have counted. The vet goes to his partner who acknowledges with 100% certainty that the ball DID in fact hit the support, but that he did not think that there was anything illegal about this so he didn't blow his whistle. If you are the veteran official, what do you do??

The vet quoted rule 2-10 art.3 and removed the points from the books and put the ball in play under the goal for team B.

In talking to various officials I have recieved varying responses regarding this situation, most of them citing rule 2-10 art.5 ref 8-1-however, I always was under the impression that 8-1 was concerning free throws...and this play had no free throws involved at all.

Thoughts?

[just another ref]

This is not a correctable error. This is simply a missed call. This is no different that if the player had traveled on a layup without a call.

[Ref16]

Originally Posted by just another ref

This is not a correctable error. This is simply a missed call. This is no different that if the player had traveled on a layup without a call.

2-10 art.1
A. Failure to award a merited free throw
B. Awarding an unmerited free throw
C. Permitting a wrong player to attempt a free throw
D. Attempting a free throw at the wrong basket
E. Erroneously counting or canceling a score

Wouldn't this fall under section E?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Ref16

2-10 art.1
A. Failure to award a merited free throw
B. Awarding an unmerited free throw
C. Permitting a wrong player to attempt a free throw
D. Attempting a free throw at the wrong basket
E. Erroneously counting or canceling a score

Wouldn't this fall under section E?

No, this score was not erroneously counted because nothing was called. You can't correct a mistake by going back in time and blowing a whistle. An example of E would be if a player control foul was called but the basket was counted anyway.

[HawkeyeCubP]

Not a CE.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Ref16

...The vet goes to his partner who acknowledges with 100% certainty that the ball DID in fact hit the support, but that he did not think that there was anything illegal about this so he didn't blow his whistle. If you are the veteran official, what do you do??

...

Replace it with "A2 did touch the ball while it was in the cylinder, but I thought it was legal".

Can't go back an call BI. Can't go back and call a violation.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Can't go back and call a violation.

Agree. However, could the officials discuss the play, and reverse the call, if the "action" had been stopped during the dead ball period subsequent to the field goal?

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Replace it with "A2 did touch the ball while it was in the cylinder, but I thought it was legal".

Can't go back an call BI. Can't go back and call a violation.

2.10.1 SITUATION J:

(a) A1; or (b) B1 commits basket interference at Team A’s basket. In (a), the referee erroneously counts the score; or in (b), fails to count it. In each case, the error is not discovered until the ball has become live following the dead ball during which the error occurred.

RULING: The official’s error in both (a) and (b) is still correctable.

By the way, remember that the following is the first line of the CE rule...Officials may correct an error if a rule is inadvertently set aside and results in...

In the OP, rule 7-1-2a-3 was set aside (The ball is out of bounds...when it touches or is touched by...the supports or back of the backboard).

[Ref16]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Agree. However, could the officials discuss the play, and reverse the call, if the "action" had been stopped during the dead ball period subsequent to the field goal?

2-10 art.3

"If in article 1e the error is made while the clock is running and the ball dead, it must be recognized by an official before the second live ball."

Since this specifically references 1e-"Erroneously counting or canceling a score" Would this not apply?

[Ref16]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

2.10.1 SITUATION J:

(a) A1; or (b) B1 commits basket interference at Team A’s basket. In (a), the referee erroneously counts the score; or in (b), fails to count it. In each case, the error is not discovered until the ball has become live following the dead ball during which the error occurred.

RULING: The official’s error in both (a) and (b) is still correctable.

By the way, remember that the following is the first line of the CE rule...Officials may correct an error if a rule is inadvertently set aside and results in...

In the OP, rule 7-1-2a-3 was set aside (The ball is out of bounds...when it touches or is touched by...the supports or back of the backboard).

This was my initial thoughts on it too.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

2.10.1 SITUATION J:

(a) A1; or (b) B1 commits basket interference at Team A’s basket. In (a), the referee erroneously counts the score; or in (b), fails to count it. In each case, the error is not discovered until the ball has become live following the dead ball during which the error occurred.

RULING: The official’s error in both (a) and (b) is still correctable.

By the way, remember that the following is the first line of the CE rule...Officials may correct an error if a rule is inadvertently set aside and results in...

In the OP, rule 7-1-2a-3 was set aside (The ball is out of bounds...when it touches or is touched by...the supports or back of the backboard).

In this case play, BI is called. The analogous situation for the OP would be if the trail official had called the ball OOB and the other official, oblivious to the call, informed the table (maybe they asked him because they were also oblivious) that the basket should count.

In the OP, the violation is not called. As others have stated, it's the same as going back and calling the travel or other violation later.

Example:
BC throwin, A2 takes the pass and dribbles towards the wrong basket. He picks up his dribble and shoots at the wrong hoop, misses, and moves to retrieve the rebound. He gets the rebound and shoots again, making the basket.

A coach requests a TO to correct a CE, knowing that the official should have called traveling on A2 and thus the score should not have counted.

There are any number of violations that could get missed because the calling official just didn't know the rule, you can't go back and call them later.

[cmathews]

The number of violations that would/could also include a score are pretty scarce. Travelling for sure, possibly an OOB but unlikely, BI's by A or B, free throw violations.

With that said, travelling is going to be more likely a judgement call that someone says yes they did or no the didn't travel, if a coach asks "didn't they travel on that layup?" The response will normally be no or something to the effect of if they did I missed it. In either case there would be no clear evidence that a rule was inadvertently set aside. All of these violations can be found under rules 2 and 9. If someone inadvertently sets aside one of these rules, and it results in a score, then if discovered in the appropriate time frame, I believe it is indeed correctable.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by cmathews

The number of violations that would/could also include a score are pretty scarce. Travelling for sure, possibly an OOB but unlikely, BI's by A or B, free throw violations.

With that said, travelling is going to be more likely a judgement call that someone says yes they did or no the didn't travel, if a coach asks "didn't they travel on that layup?" The response will normally be no or something to the effect of if they did I missed it. In either case there would be no clear evidence that a rule was inadvertently set aside. All of these violations can be found under rules 2 and 9. If someone inadvertently sets aside one of these rules, and it results in a score, then if discovered in the appropriate time frame, I believe it is indeed correctable.

A1 drives the lane and does a jump stop. From his jump stop, he pivots, placing the foot back on the floor before jumping for a dunk. The covering official sees this, but doesn't call the travel because he doesn't know the rule prohibits pivoting after a jump stop.

After A1 scores, B coach requests a CE timeout. After getting together with his partners, the official realizes he set aside a rule and a score was thus counted that shouldn't have. Are you going to say this is a CE?

A1 dribbling in his backcourt, just before the BC count gets to 10, he throws his pass towards a streaking teammate for an allyoop dunk. The official hits 10 on his count well before A2 catches the pass, but doesn't make the call because he doesn't know the rule. This is the last play before half time.

Can they correct this and disallow the basket, wiping off the two points, when they return to the court?

There are plenty of violation calls that could be missed strictly because the covering official doesn't know the rule. This is not what the rule is intended to cover.

[MD Longhorn]

Why is no one doing the obvious...

fire the scorekeeper who laid on the buzzer solely because coach asked them to!

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Adam

A1 drives the lane and does a jump stop....

Good examples.

Basically, what you're saying (and what I agree with) is that the rule that is set aside that results in an error is only referring to scoring rules (legal shot or not a legal shot, FTs earned but not awarded or FTs awarded but not earned, how much a shot should be worth or not, etc), not violation or timing rules.

The rule that is set aside has to directly related to the scoring, not coincidentally lead to the score.