What you guys Think of this? (Video)

[Rich1]

Count me in with those who have an intentional foul to go along with the T. By rule, if the player is not making a play on the ball it is an intentional foul. I see the defender grab the dribbler from behind with both hands almost in the fashion of a bear hug. I see no problem with how it was called and probably would have called it the same if I were there. Also note, that the opposing coach stood up immediately calling for the flagrant so others saw it that way when it happened as well (I know several of you will want to blast that statement with some comment about coaches dictating calls but I am ony including it to demonstrate that it was seen that way by him). And, any T that resulted is to be blamed on the player. It does not matter why he disagrees with the call or how bad a call may be a player should never comment or demonstrate in an unsporting manner.

Finally, for any of us to question the honesty and credibility of other officials is unprofessional and counter productive. I don't know one guy nor have I heard of one game from my area where an official cheated. As they like to say in grade school, when you point a finger at someone there are four pointing back at you.

I hope in the future some of you more regular posters can stop trying so hard to find fault with others and stick to discusing / debating rules and situations. I enjoy coming to the forum to learn from each of you but find it hard to wade through the constant negativity of some posters.

[Adam]

Rich, I think you've misread the posts. No one here (that I recall) has suggested these officials lacked integrity. Quite the opposite, in fact.

I'm not going to blast you for noting the coach's response, I'm only going to say it doesn't matter. Half the head coaches think all fouls in the last minute are intentional. I think the kid was going for the ball, he just went through the offensive player to get to it. Like I said before, though, this probably wasn't even the worst call of the game.

[Rich1]

Adam,

There were a few hints at it here but I was also referencing past threads as well. It seems that often times we get caught up in criticizing the official (about things that don't impact the actual call) instead of concentrating on the situation or rule.

And, I know that my soap box rantings really only apply to 5 or 6 of the regulars. Most posters here are positive and I enjoy the academic discussions from which I can learn or see things from different perspectives.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Adam

Rich, I think you've misread the posts. No one here (that I recall) has suggested these officials lacked integrity. Quite the opposite, in fact.

Precisely. I only am saying that a call that was a poor call lead to the circumstances that drew the T compounding the magnitude of the situation.

I never said or implied anything questing the integrity or honesty of the official....just that his poor call selection had a greater impact than the call itself.

An as far as how many here are agreeing with the IF, it is a very small number....I think I only saw 1 or 2. They player's hand was reaching right at the ball. He doesn't have to be successful at getting the ball for it to be common. We also tend to automatically support other officials who call T's, sometimes without objectively considering the situation.

Originally Posted by Rich1

It seems that often times we get caught up in criticizing the official

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I only am saying that a call that was a poor call lead to the circumstances that drew the T compounding the magnitude of the situation.

We are not saying the T was unwarranted, we are just saying we wish the official got the play right in the first place. Just like that play in the UCONN game and just like a play I had on Saturday. If I get the first play right, my partner doesn't have to make a very tough call on the ensuing action.

[JugglingReferee]

Common foul. But the T was deserved I'm sure. Too bad he upgraded the foul to an INT though.

Having said that, I would definitely talk to B1 because I do think he unnecessarily contacted A1.

I do see the bear hug and the arm hook was a poor attempt to play the ball, imho. And I say this even as A1 embellished. I may speak to him too.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Rich1

Count me in with those who have an intentional foul to go along with the T. By rule, if the player is not making a play on the ball it is an intentional foul. I see the defender grab the dribbler from behind with both hands almost in the fashion of a bear hug. I see no problem with how it was called and probably would have called it the same if I were there. Also note, that the opposing coach stood up immediately calling for the flagrant so others saw it that way when it happened as well (I know several of you will want to blast that statement with some comment about coaches dictating calls but I am ony including it to demonstrate that it was seen that way by him). And, any T that resulted is to be blamed on the player. It does not matter why he disagrees with the call or how bad a call may be a player should never comment or demonstrate in an unsporting manner.

Finally, for any of us to question the honesty and credibility of other officials is unprofessional and counter productive. I don't know one guy nor have I heard of one game from my area where an official cheated. As they like to say in grade school, when you point a finger at someone there are four pointing back at you.

I hope in the future some of you more regular posters can stop trying so hard to find fault with others and stick to discussing / debating rules and situations. I enjoy coming to the forum to learn from each of you but find it hard to wade through the constant negativity of some posters.

Rich1:

I am piggy backing onto your post because your first paragraph describes pretty accurately why B1's Personal Foul could be seen as an Intentional PF. And to be honest, we are watching the video on a small screen and not at quite the angle that the T saw it in real time and in full size.

This game was a non-league game for both schools. Lorain H.S. is in the Lake Erie League in the OhioHSAA's Northeast District, and Norwalk H.S. is in the Northern Ohio League in the the OhioHSAA's Northwest District. I do not know any of the officials in the game and this is the first time I have seen either of them.

As far as the Northern Ohio League is concerned I do not know if these officials were assigned by the league commissioner or by the Norwalk H.S. athletic director. The vast majority of leagues in Ohio only assign their member schools' league games and the member schools' then assign their own officials for their home non-league games. And whether this is the case in the NOL or not, in the vast majority of leagues the only way that an official can get league assignments from commissioners is if they have been recommended by at least one coach in the league: no recommendation by a coach, means a commissioner cannot assign him games in that league. Welcome to Ohio (and Michigan for that matter too).

MTD, Sr.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by Rich1

Count me in with those who have an intentional foul to go along with the T. By rule, if the player is not making a play on the ball it is an intentional foul. I see the defender grab the dribbler from behind with both hands almost in the fashion of a bear hug. I see no problem with how it was called and probably would have called it the same if I were there. Also note, that the opposing coach stood up immediately calling for the flagrant so others saw it that way when it happened as well (I know several of you will want to blast that statement with some comment about coaches dictating calls but I am ony including it to demonstrate that it was seen that way by him). And, any T that resulted is to be blamed on the player. It does not matter why he disagrees with the call or how bad a call may be a player should never comment or demonstrate in an unsporting manner.

Finally, for any of us to question the honesty and credibility of other officials is unprofessional and counter productive. I don't know one guy nor have I heard of one game from my area where an official cheated. As they like to say in grade school, when you point a finger at someone there are four pointing back at you.

I hope in the future some of you more regular posters can stop trying so hard to find fault with others and stick to discusing / debating rules and situations. I enjoy coming to the forum to learn from each of you but find it hard to wade through the constant negativity of some posters.

Who here questioned the integrity of the officials at any point?

The opposing coach does not stand up to immediately signal anything. Two coaches appear to already be standing and signal for an intentional after the player goes on a self induced flight through the air and just about the same time as the official is crossing his arms. And you should expect to be blasted for this comment b/c it's silly. Of course the coach up by 2 at the end of the game wants an intentional. On more than one occasion I've had coaches ask for intentional on late stop the clock fouls and when I've said, "Coach, that wasnt even close" they've responded, "I know but I thought I'd try...."

Again, nobody here is questioning the integrity of these officials. I just feel very strongly that judging that play to be intentional is horrific end of game officiating. Absolutely horrific.

And I'm surprised that there are even a handful of people here who don't see this as the case.