Late Game Situation

[A Pennsylvania Coach]

Saw this in a televised game officiated by our chapter:

Team A up by 9 in closing seconds. B1 takes a halfcourt shot and is fouled in the act by A1. After the foul the clock continues to run and the horn sounds. The clock shows 0:00. What do you do if (a) you know how much time was left at the time of the foul, and it was 1.5 seconds?; (b) you know how much time was left at the time of the foul, and it was 0.5 seconds?; (c) you don't know how much time was left at the time of the foul?

[Scrapper1]

If you know how much time was on the clock when the foul occurred, you put that much time back on the clock, regardless of whether it's more or less than one second.

If you don't know what was on the clock, then you ask your partners for help. If they don't know, then you ask everyone at the table (timer, shot clock operator, scorer, visiting scorer, computer-stat guy) for help.

If nobody knows the exact amount of time to put back on the clock, but you are sure that the foul occurred before the horn, I think you have to put something on the clock, even if it's just 0.3.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

If nobody knows the exact amount of time to put back on the clock, but you are sure that the foul occurred before the horn, I think you have to put something on the clock, even if it's just 0.3.

Scrapper1: This sounds like a common sense, fair, solution, but is it correct, by rule? Where is your "definite knowledge" as required by rule? Easy way to get through this would be to say that because of the shortness of time left in the period, that you, as the official, kept a count in your head after the foul occurred. I could live with that. Barring that, ask anyone else in your crew, including the table, if they kept any mental count after the foul occurred? Barring that, with no definite knowledge by anyone, it looks like, by rule, that the game would be over.

[junruh07]

If I call a foul before the horn, but the horn sounds, and no one has definite knowledge of how much time is left, I am not ruling the game over. (assuming the outcome is still in doubt and could be changed by potential free throws)

Nevermind, I see the OP says that a team was up by 9. In that case, the game is over.

[bainsey]

Had something like this last week, though the margin was double digits.

Called the foul, heard the horn. Reported the foul, and said, "that's it." No shots. Thanks, crew.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Scrapper1: This sounds like a common sense, fair, solution, but is it correct, by rule? Where is your "definite knowledge" as required by rule?

Absolutely fair question. My definite knowledge is that the game is not over. I know that there was time left on the clock when the whistle sounded. So if the game is definitely not over, the issue is not whether to put time back on the clock, but how much.

Even in a 9-point game, if it's obvious that the whistle came first, I think I would adjust the clock.

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

My definite knowledge is that the game is not over. I know that there was time left on the clock when the whistle sounded. So if the game is definitely not over, the issue is not whether to put time back on the clock, but how much.

How much is all that matters to the NFHS. Unless you have definite knowledge of how much time was left (i.e. you saw the clock), you cannot put time back on.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by AremRed

How much is all that matters to the NFHS. Unless you have definite knowledge of how much time was left (i.e. you saw the clock), you cannot put time back on.

You can double check me on this, but I'm pretty sure the words "how much" do not appear in the rule. I believe what it says is definite knowledge "relative to the time" involved. The definite knowledge in Scrapper's example would be:

anything > 0

With this in mind, you might as well make it .1 on the clock. The effect would be the same.

[A Pennsylvania Coach]

For what it's worth, what the officials did in the game I saw was shot the free throws despite not putting any time back on the clock. No lineup. I'd say the whistle for the foul came at about 1.5 seconds and the foul itself probably around 2.0. Weird way to end a game, and wrong of course. I'm guessing they might say that they had some definite knowledge but the clock operator couldn't quickly put time back up. But, they went to the shots pretty quickly so I don't know if I'd buy that story!

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by A Pennsylvania Coach

For what it's worth, what the officials did in the game I saw was shot the free throws despite not putting any time back on the clock. No lineup. I'd say the whistle for the foul came at about 1.5 seconds and the foul itself probably around 2.0. Weird way to end a game, and wrong of course. I'm guessing they might say that they had some definite knowledge but the clock operator couldn't quickly put time back up. But, they went to the shots pretty quickly so I don't know if I'd buy that story!

One thing is certain. In a 9 point game, if you don't put time back up, you don't shoot the free throws.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Absolutely fair question. My definite knowledge is that the game is not over. I know that there was time left on the clock when the whistle sounded. So if the game is definitely not over, the issue is not whether to put time back on the clock, but how much.

Even in a 9-point game, if it's obvious that the whistle came first, I think I would adjust the clock.

You definitely should NOT do this!
You should follow the rules and accept that a timing error occurred and that you can't fix it without definite knowledge.

Change the situation to the middle of the 2nd Qtr. A travel is called and the timer fails to stop the clock. A substitution occurs and clock is still running when you look up and see it at 4:23 and counting down. Neither your partner(s) nor the table crew has any info to help. In an NFHS game what time do you have placed on the clock?
The correct answer is 4:23 because that is what you saw even though you know that more time ran off. By rule, you can't guess and restore more time.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

You can double check me on this, but I'm pretty sure the words "how much" do not appear in the rule. I believe what it says is definite knowledge "relative to the time" involved. The definite knowledge in Scrapper's example would be:

anything > 0

With this in mind, you might as well make it .1 on the clock. The effect would be the same.

You should consult the Case Book plays and the Interp rulings. They say that the official can restore what he saw on the clock.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by just another ref

You can double check me on this, but I'm pretty sure the words "how much" do not appear in the rule. I believe what it says is definite knowledge "relative to the time" involved. The definite knowledge in Scrapper's example would be:

anything > 0

With this in mind, you might as well make it .1 on the clock. The effect would be the same.

No. That is not what they mean by relative. Relative means knowledge relating to the amount the time as apposed to definite knowledge relating to the score or something else.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

You should consult the Case Book plays and the Interp rulings. They say that the official can restore what he saw on the clock.

It says he can restore what he saw on the clock, sure. It doesn't say that he can restore only what he saw on the clock. I'm backing up what Scrapper says. He had a count in his head which started with the whistle. "one thou....."
That was definitely some time.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Absolutely fair question. My definite knowledge is that the game is not over. I know that there was time left on the clock when the whistle sounded. So if the game is definitely not over, the issue is not whether to put time back on the clock, but how much.

Even in a 9-point game, if it's obvious that the whistle came first, I think I would adjust the clock.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

You definitely should NOT do this!
You should follow the rules and accept that a timing error occurred and that you can't fix it without definite knowledge.

Change the situation to the middle of the 2nd Qtr. A travel is called and the timer fails to stop the clock. A substitution occurs and clock is still running when you look up and see it at 4:23 and counting down. Neither your partner(s) nor the table crew has any info to help. In an NFHS game what time do you have placed on the clock?
The correct answer is 4:23 because that is what you saw even though you know that more time ran off. By rule, you can't guess and restore more time.

This is not a good comparison.