When is it too late to turnback a game ???????

[Multiple Sports]

I jusr received a small college basketball game for wednesday evening and called my h.s. assigner. He whined about me turning the game and how i was being unprofessional.

My response was that it was a win win for everyone. Now a jv guy gets a varsity game and a guy sittin home gets a jv game. The assigner and I have a good relationship and I told him that doing things for officials will make our
board better in the long run.

Do you guys think that 48 hrs in enough time and how do your assigners
where you live handle this issue?????

[Scrapper1]

If your assignor uses a computer-based assigning system like the Arbiter or RefTown, then it's very easy to re-assign the game. If your assignor is a dinosaur who still uses pencil and paper, then it's a bigger pain because he will have to get on the phone and call people.

There are two questions here. Is it unprofessional to turn back the game and when is too late to turn back a game. There's no right or wrong answer to either question. The answer for each varies by assignor.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

If your assignor uses a computer-based assigning system like the Arbiter or RefTown, then it's very easy to re-assign the game. If your assignor is a dinosaur who still uses pencil and paper, then it's a bigger pain because he will have to get on the phone and call people.

There are two questions here. Is it unprofessional to turn back the game and when is too late to turn back a game. There's no right or wrong answer to either question. The answer for each varies by assignor.

Agreed -- it might also depend on the particular night. Maybe this Wed is one of those nights when "everyone" is playing, and the assignor is already short of officials. Or, maybe this is the only game and referees have been calling the assigner begging for games.

Maybe the game you were on was the big rivalry game, so it's not as simple as moving up a JV ref. The assignor might need to move another V ref to your game and then re-assign that "lesser" V game.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

If your assignor uses a computer-based assigning system like the Arbiter or RefTown, then it's very easy to re-assign the game. If your assignor is a dinosaur who still uses pencil and paper, then it's a bigger pain because he will have to get on the phone and call people.

There are two questions here. Is it unprofessional to turn back the game and when is too late to turn back a game. There's no right or wrong answer to either question. The answer for each varies by assignor.

It ain't that easy. It depends on # of games to be covered plus availability on that particular night. We might also have to match partners depending on the game. We don't want 2 fairly inexperienced guys on a big game and we don't want new officials taking varsity games they aren't ready for yet either. We also try to keep people away from going to the same location too many times.

If someone tells me they're available and I assign them based on that availability...and they then come back to me to say they've accepted another game that they thought was better than the game I gave them...you can take it to the bank I will remember that. Their next game from me will be only when I absolutely have to use them. And I can tell you that most assignors feel the same way. We treat officials the way thery treat us. Fair's fair.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

It ain't that easy. It depends on # of games to be covered plus availability on that particular night. We might also have to match partners depending on the game. We don't want 2 fairly inexperienced guys on a big game and we don't want new officials taking varsity games they aren't ready for yet either.

While I have no doubt that you put some thought (probably a LOT of thought) into these considerations, the actual switching of assignments takes less than 5 minutes if you use the Arbiter or something similar. Yes, I'm sure you'd rather not have to do it, but it's just not that hard to do, is it?

and they then come back to me to say they've accepted another game that they thought was better than the game I gave them...you can take it to the bank I will remember that. Their next game from me will be only when I absolutely have to use them.

I have so much respect for you, I hope you know that; but it's a little sad to me that you feel this way. As an assignor, I know that I would want to have good officials working my games. But I hope that I would also want those officials to progress as far as their abilities would take them. And in order to do that, you have to make yourself available to take a higher level game.

There is a D3 assignor outside my local area, who I get no games from, but I occasionally work with some of his officials. He has progressed in his own officiating career about as far as possible. But he punishes officials who turn back his D3 game for a D2 game. Do you suppose he got as far as he did without an assignor or two helping him out, rather than holding him back? Yet, he says, "If you turn back my game for a D2 game, forget about the postseason". His guys hate him.

And I can tell you that most assignors feel the same way. We treat officials the way thery treat us. Fair's fair.

I don't know most assignors. But I can tell you that none of my assignors (including my D2 assignor) feels that way. I have been very fortunate, I guess, to have assignors who have operated with the understanding that the higher level game gets the higher priority.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

1) While I have no doubt that you put some thought (probably a LOT of thought) into these considerations, the actual switching of assignments takes less than 5 minutes if you use the Arbiter or something similar. Yes, I'm sure you'd rather not have to do it, but it's just not that hard to do, is it?

2) I have so much respect for you, I hope you know that; but it's a little sad to me that you feel this way. As an assignor, I know that I would want to have good officials working my games. But I hope that I would also want those officials to progress as far as their abilities would take them. And in order to do that, you have to make yourself available to take a higher level game.

1) Sometimes you may have to change several other assignments to get the match-up that you want. Some officials just don't mesh that well with some of their confreres. I haveta keep them away from each other where possible. And the game might dictate a fairly strong officiating crew, which means that I have to factor that in also. Can't have 3 U's on a game like that. It just aint that easy all the time, Scrappy. Sometime? Yes.

2) Please note that I specifically talked about officials who inform me that they're giving back the game without bothering to even try to discuss it with me first. If they phone and do discuss it, I don't have a problem with anybody switching to a better game. But if you don't want to talk to me and explain the circumstances, well, pardon the language, but to heck with you. To heck, I say! Also please note that I tell anyone who does have a college schedule to send me a copy of their schedule as soon as they get it. That way I can work around it.

[26 Year Gap]

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I don't know most assignors. But I can tell you that none of my assignors (including my D2 assignor) feels that way. I have been very fortunate, I guess, to have assignors who have operated with the understanding that the higher level game gets the higher priority.

I think this, like everything, is regional. I don't have one HS assignor. I have about a dozen conference commissioners who assign and I usually have (at most) 4 games a season from each commissioner (with one exception, where I work about 10). Here you simply can't dump a game back into an assignor's lap unless you want to pay the consequences -- if you secure a qualified sub and bring that name to the conversation, then the commissioner doesn't really care, for the most part. Our games are scheduled well in advance, though -- I just picked up a game in 2013, for example. Our assignors don't try to pick and choose the *best crew* for the *best game* because who knows what the best game will be 3 years from now?

I get off more than my fair share of games. I travel for a living and if a work trip comes along I can't weasel my way out of, I have to turn back games. Officiating doesn't pay the mortgage, after all.

I have no goal of being a fulltime college official. So unlike others here, I would look at a small college game 3 hours from the house and a HS game 15 minutes from the house and pick the HS game *every time*. This is what I did in baseball, and it frustrated the college assignor when I told him, "No, thanks, I already have a HS DH." Funny thing was, it never meant he wouldn't call me -- I just don't think he was used to someone telling him that a little old HS varsity game meant just as much to me as a small college game. Well, it did and it still does.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I have no goal of being a fulltime college official. So unlike others here, I would look at a small college game 3 hours from the house and a HS game 15 minutes from the house and pick the HS game *every time*. This is what I did in baseball, and it frustrated the college assignor when I told him, "No, thanks, I already have a HS DH." Funny thing was, it never meant he wouldn't call me -- I just don't think he was used to someone telling him that a little old HS varsity game meant just as much to me as a small college game. Well, it did and it still does.

Most college games I work are the same distance of the high school games I work. So that part is not an issue for me. I also like to be challenged. Many high school games do not challenge me.

Peace

[bigdog5142]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

It ain't that easy. It depends on # of games to be covered plus availability on that particular night. We might also have to match partners depending on the game. We don't want 2 fairly inexperienced guys on a big game and we don't want new officials taking varsity games they aren't ready for yet either. We also try to keep people away from going to the same location too many times.

If someone tells me they're available and I assign them based on that availability...and they then come back to me to say they've accepted another game that they thought was better than the game I gave them...you can take it to the bank I will remember that. Their next game from me will be only when I absolutely have to use them. And I can tell you that most assignors feel the same way. We treat officials the way thery treat us. Fair's fair.

I just wanted to ask you, Jurassic, what you think about this same situation when an assignor gives no respect to anyone. I'm in a situation where the assignor does not wish to know anyone that he assigns unless you go to his camp in the summer. I cannot attend his camp due to my real job. He willingly assigns me Frosh and JV games, but will not assign me Varsity until I fork over the money to attend his camp (and even then it's not a guarantee). I do not turn back many games, as I feel like that's not fair. However, this season he is assigning games in two-week blocks rather than the entire season. (He's a college ref and college assignor as well.) I officiate for two other assignors in my area and am moving up in their ranks as I am doing many varsity games with them while filling my schedule with the other guy. I just got a boys varsity this Tuesday and turned back a girls JV. My biggest issue is that this assignor NEVER returns emails or phone calls. I have NEVER spoken to the man on the phone. I got one email when I joined and that's been it. The only response I get when I turn back a game is the Aribter telling me I've been removed. So...I guess I don't feel too badly about giving back a game when there's no real respect there.

I'm always willing to learn and be taught, however...what do you think? I'm not going to do a mass turn back and I feel I should fulfill my assignments, but in this case, I also want to show the guys that are assigning me varsity that I want to work for them. Good thing is I know the other two assignors well and work on their crews with them. (I'm a fill-in for them sometimes and work with them on others.) So...whatcha think?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bigdog5142

I just wanted to ask you, Jurassic, what you think about this same situation when an assignor gives no respect to anyone. I'm in a situation where the assignor does not wish to know anyone that he assigns unless you go to his camp in the summer. I cannot attend his camp due to my real job. He willingly assigns me Frosh and JV games, but will not assign me Varsity until I fork over the money to attend his camp (and even then it's not a guarantee). I do not turn back many games, as I feel like that's not fair. However, this season he is assigning games in two-week blocks rather than the entire season. (He's a college ref and college assignor as well.) I officiate for two other assignors in my area and am moving up in their ranks as I am doing many varsity games with them while filling my schedule with the other guy. I just got a boys varsity this Tuesday and turned back a girls JV. My biggest issue is that this assignor NEVER returns emails or phone calls. I have NEVER spoken to the man on the phone. I got one email when I joined and that's been it. The only response I get when I turn back a game is the Aribter telling me I've been removed. So...I guess I don't feel too badly about giving back a game when there's no real respect there.

I'm always willing to learn and be taught, however...what do you think? I'm not going to do a mass turn back and I feel I should fulfill my assignments, but in this case, I also want to show the guys that are assigning me varsity that I want to work for them. Good thing is I know the other two assignors well and work on their crews with them. (I'm a fill-in for them sometimes and work with them on others.) So...whatcha think?

I think that the assignor you described is an azzhole. Assigning should basically be merit-based with other factors used when needed. My advice is to work as much as possible with the 2 assignors that seem to agree with that. As for the other clown? Tough situation. Unfortunately, you'll probably just have to live with it if you want to work some games for that particular guy. But I personally can't see one damn thing wrong with you treating that particular assignor the same way that he's been treating you. T'hell with his camp; that's extortion. If you get a call from one of the other assignors, help them out. It works both ways. From your description, they'll help you out.

Just don't let him get to you, whatever you do. Just because one assignor is a dickhead doesn't mean we all are.

Good luck with your career. You do have the right attitude imho fwiw.

[bigdog5142]

Most people hate working for the guy (myself included and unless you're on the inside) but he assigns the biggest association in our area (16 school league). I'm working on getting other contacts, but it takes time.

Thanks for the advice. I've been officiating for 12 years or so, but the politics here are rough. I agree with the extortion comment...thought that for awhile. I officiated in the Salem, OR association when I started out and they had the varsity officials come a bit early for their game to rank us and give us pointers. Rating system from 8-1 with different levels associated with each number. Guess I had it pretty good there! Would LOVE to see that again someday!

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

If your assignor uses a computer-based assigning system like the Arbiter or RefTown, then it's very easy to re-assign the game. If your assignor is a dinosaur who still uses pencil and paper, then it's a bigger pain because he will have to get on the phone and call people.

There are two questions here. Is it unprofessional to turn back the game and when is too late to turn back a game. There's no right or wrong answer to either question. The answer for each varies by assignor.

And that is the real answer.

Here, it is accepted practice to turn back a HS game for a college game. I've done it but not same day. Not sure how late would really be OK.

No matter how busy of a day it is, with enough notice, there is at least someone who can double up.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Multiple Sports

I jusr received a small college basketball game for wednesday evening and called my h.s. assigner. He whined about me turning the game and how i was being unprofessional.

My response was that it was a win win for everyone. Now a jv guy gets a varsity game and a guy sittin home gets a jv game. The assigner and I have a good relationship and I told him that doing things for officials will make our
board better in the long run.

Do you guys think that 48 hrs in enough time and how do your assigners
where you live handle this issue?????

I think the professional way to handle this is to tell the small college guy you'll get back to him after you communicate with your HS assignor. Then call the HS assignor and see if he's OK with the switch.

My attitude has always been that my HS game is no less important than a small college date and my contract for the HS game is binding unless the HS assignor agrees to let me out of it. I don't work a lot of college basketball, but I worked a pretty full D3 baseball schedule up until I quit a few years ago and the college assignor hated that I wouldn't just dump HS commitments at the drop of a hat for him and it's one reason I just decided to not work those games anymore.

[BayStateRef]

It is best to have these situations resolved before they come up...because they will come up. When I was hired for college this season, I asked each of my high school assignors how late they would take back a game if I got a college game...and each said that 24 hours is fine. Same-day turnbacks are not OK, especially on Tuesdays and Fridays...which is when every high school plays.

I told my college assignor and he said that if he knows I have a HS game, he will give me 30 minutes to get off the high school game before he offers the game to another official.

High school starts next week..so I have not yet had to test this.