Missouri State/Wichita State video requests

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The defender has LGP, back away and the dribble goes into him and seems to push off. All the defender did was prepare for the contact. His arm was there to if anything protect his midsection. I do not see how the official put this on the defender? That was the easiest call IMO. There was not issue with "upward motion" or airborne shooter at play. That was a PC foul last year too.

Then again, we had the benefit of tape.

Peace

LGP is obtained when the defender gets both feet down at the spot first. Personally, I don't see that here, as the defender is still moving towards the spot where contact is made when hit. It's close, though, so I wouldn't get on another official for calling a charge, but I don't see where this is so easy.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

LGP is obtained when the defender gets both feet down at the spot first. Personally, I don't see that here, as the defender is still moving towards the spot where contact is made when hit. It's close, though, so I wouldn't get on another official for calling a charge, but I don't see where this is so easy.

Umm, close. Here are the first three requirements for establishing LGP on someone with the ball:

a. The guard shall have both feet touching the playing court. When the guard jumps into position initially, both feet must return to the playing court after the jump, for the guard to attain a legal guarding position.
b. The guard’s torso shall face the opponent.
c. No time and distance shall be required.

And here is one of the criteria for maintaining LGP...

(the guard) may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position provided such a move is not toward the opponent when contact occurs;

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Umm, close. Here are the first three requirements for establishing LGP on someone with the ball:

a. The guard shall have both feet touching the playing court. When the guard jumps into position initially, both feet must return to the playing court after the jump, for the guard to attain a legal guarding position.
b. The guard’s torso shall face the opponent.
c. No time and distance shall be required.

And here is one of the criteria for maintaining LGP...

(the guard) may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position provided such a move is not toward the opponent when contact occurs;

Section 23 Art. 1 of the 2013-2014 NFHS Rule Book says "Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting the opponent". This part comes before the guidelines you quote.

IMO, the defender in Play #1 does not get to the spot first and before contact is made. He has to have both feet on the playing court at the spot of the foul, and be the first at the spot, to satisfy both parts of legally guarding an opponent plus obtaining legal guarding position.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Section 23 Art. 1 of the 2013-2014 NFHS Rule Book says "Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting the opponent". This part comes before the guidelines you quote.

IMO, the defender in Play #1 does not get to the spot first and before contact is made. He has to have both feet on the playing court at the spot of the foul, and be the first at the spot, to satisfy both parts of legally guarding an opponent plus obtaining legal guarding position.

Not if he has already established LGP.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by zm1283

Not if he has already established LGP.

LGP doesn't matter. I'll write it again...

"Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets their first without illegally contacting the opponent." - Page 33, Section 23 ART. 1 of the 2013-2014 NFHS Basketball Rules book

Whether or not you think the defender had LGP is moot, as the dribbler has the right to that spot too. The defender did NOT get their first.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

LGP doesn't matter. I'll write it again...

"Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets their first without illegally contacting the opponent." - Page 33, Section 23 ART. 1 of the 2013-2014 NFHS Basketball Rules book

Whether or not you think the defender had LGP is moot, as the dribbler has the right to that spot too. The defender did NOT get their first.

LGP does matter. He was in a LGP and did get to the spot prior to the offense. I think the first play could have been a play on, but in my opinion if you have a call, I would have a PC. One thing I don't see is the offensive player getting past the shoulders of the defense.

[BryanV21]

I've been looking hard at the play and reading the rule book over and over, as I've been involved in debate concerning plays like this before, and I will concede to this...

If both players got to the spot at the same time, then a PC call should be made. The defender had more of a right to that spot as he moved laterally, and not towards the dribbler, after having gained LGP beforehand.

My problem with that is that I don't like the "same time" thing. One player beat the other to the spot, so make a choice. It's like when I was an umpire, and you'd have a "bang-bang" play at a base, and you'd hear somebody say "tie goes to the runner." Well, there is no such thing as a tie. Somebody touched the base first, so make a decision.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by OKREF

He was in a LGP and did get to the spot prior to the offense.

That's what I'm talking about. I'm not going to argue against somebody else's judgment.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Section 23 Art. 1 of the 2013-2014 NFHS Rule Book says "Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting the opponent". This part comes before the guidelines you quote.

IMO, the defender in Play #1 does not get to the spot first and before contact is made. He has to have both feet on the playing court at the spot of the foul, and be the first at the spot, to satisfy both parts of legally guarding an opponent plus obtaining legal guarding position.

How did the defender illegally contact the opponent? He does not have to have both feet on the floor to maintain LGP which, at that point, is all he's doing since he'd already obtained LGP when the offensive player was 10-15 feet away from him and he's moving laterally, which is legal given he's maintaining LGP.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

How did the defender illegally contact the opponent? He does not have to have both feet on the floor to maintain LGP which, at that point, is all he's doing since he'd already obtained LGP when the offensive player was 10-15 feet away from him and he's moving laterally, which is legal given he's maintaining LGP.

No, he doesn't have to have both feet on the court to "maintain" LGP. I never said he did. I said he had to have both feet on the court, at the point of contact, in order for me to deem him there first and call a PC foul.

Who got to that spot first absolutely matters.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

No, he doesn't have to have both feet on the court to "maintain" LGP. I never said he did. I said he had to have both feet on the court, at the point of contact, in order for me to deem him there first and call a PC foul.

Who got to that spot first absolutely matters.

This is not accurate.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by OKREF

This is not accurate.

Then how do you define a player getting to a spot first?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

No, he doesn't have to have both feet on the court to "maintain" LGP. I never said he did. I said he had to have both feet on the court, at the point of contact, in order for me to deem him there first and call a PC foul.

Who got to that spot first absolutely matters.

You can't have it both ways. Your criteria are self-contradictory. You're basically saying he doesn't have to get the feet down to maintain LGP but he has to get the feet down to maintain LGP (which is getting to the spot first).

Getting to the spot first after already having LGP has nothing to do with the feet. It is about the space...where the torso's meet. Defender clearly got that first.

Calling it the way you're suggesting is just screwing defenders....that makes playing good defense an impossible task.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

You can't have it both ways. Your criteria are self-contradictory. You're basically saying he doesn't have to get the feet down to maintain LGP but he has to get the feet down to maintain LGP (which is getting to the spot first).

Getting to the spot first after already having LGP has nothing to do with the feet. It is about the space...where the torso's meet. Defender clearly got that first.

Calling it the way you're suggesting is just screwing defenders....that makes playing good defense an impossible task.

I've called plenty of fouls against the offense, so don't worry... I'm not screwing defenders or making playing good defense an impossible task.

Having both feet down at the spot of contact is the way I'm defining getting to that spot first. How would you define getting to a spot first, which would satisfy the first part of legally guarding a player?

Play 1: No call.

Play 2: No call.

Play 3: Charge.

Play 4: Black ball.