Missouri State/Wichita State video requests

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

No, he doesn't have to have both feet on the court to "maintain" LGP. I never said he did. I said he had to have both feet on the court, at the point of contact, in order for me to deem him there first and call a PC foul.

Who got to that spot first absolutely matters.

You can't have it both ways. Your criteria are self-contradictory. You're basically saying he doesn't have to get the feet down to maintain LGP but he has to get the feet down to maintain LGP (which is getting to the spot first).

Getting to the spot first after already having LGP has nothing to do with the feet. It is about the space...where the torso's meet. Defender clearly got that first.

Calling it the way you're suggesting is just screwing defenders....that makes playing good defense an impossible task.

[BryanV21]

I've been looking hard at the play and reading the rule book over and over, as I've been involved in debate concerning plays like this before, and I will concede to this...

If both players got to the spot at the same time, then a PC call should be made. The defender had more of a right to that spot as he moved laterally, and not towards the dribbler, after having gained LGP beforehand.

My problem with that is that I don't like the "same time" thing. One player beat the other to the spot, so make a choice. It's like when I was an umpire, and you'd have a "bang-bang" play at a base, and you'd hear somebody say "tie goes to the runner." Well, there is no such thing as a tie. Somebody touched the base first, so make a decision.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

You can't have it both ways. Your criteria are self-contradictory. You're basically saying he doesn't have to get the feet down to maintain LGP but he has to get the feet down to maintain LGP (which is getting to the spot first).

Getting to the spot first after already having LGP has nothing to do with the feet. It is about the space...where the torso's meet. Defender clearly got that first.

Calling it the way you're suggesting is just screwing defenders....that makes playing good defense an impossible task.

I've called plenty of fouls against the offense, so don't worry... I'm not screwing defenders or making playing good defense an impossible task.

Having both feet down at the spot of contact is the way I'm defining getting to that spot first. How would you define getting to a spot first, which would satisfy the first part of legally guarding a player?

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by OKREF

He was in a LGP and did get to the spot prior to the offense.

That's what I'm talking about. I'm not going to argue against somebody else's judgment.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

LGP is obtained when the defender gets both feet down at the spot first. Personally, I don't see that here, as the defender is still moving towards the spot where contact is made when hit. It's close, though, so I wouldn't get on another official for calling a charge, but I don't see where this is so easy.

I do not need to belabor the point. You really need to learn what LGP is and what it is to maintain LGP.

The defender never moved toward the ball handler.

Peace

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

I've called plenty of fouls against the offense, so don't worry... I'm not screwing defenders or making playing good defense an impossible task.

Having both feet down at the spot of contact is the way I'm defining getting to that spot first. How would you define getting to a spot first, which would satisfy the first part of legally guarding a player?

Initial LGP, yes a player has to have both feet on the floor and facing the offensive player, however, keeping both feet on the floor is not a requirement for maintaining LGP. The defense may move laterally, or obliquely.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not need to belabor the point. You really need to learn what LGP is and what it is to maintain LGP.

The defender never moved toward the ball handler.

Peace

Thank you for addressing my concern over the part of the rule book that talks about a player getting to a spot first.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Thank you for addressing my concern over the part of the rule book that talks about a player getting to a spot first.

So, a player who is out of bounds and jumps back onto the court and has one foot on the floor inbounds and one foot in the air. Where is his spot? Inbounds or out?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

I've called plenty of fouls against the offense, so don't worry... I'm not screwing defenders or making playing good defense an impossible task.

Having both feet down at the spot of contact is the way I'm defining getting to that spot first. How would you define getting to a spot first, which would satisfy the first part of legally guarding a player?

Freeze everything just before contact.
1. Did the defender do anything illegal to get into that position (feet are irrelevant)? No.
2. Did the defender have LGP (feet were relevant at the point it was obtained). Yes....for a long time.
3. Was the defender (the torso) in the path of the opponent? Yes....that is being in the spot.
4. Was the defender moving toward the opponent? No.
5. Unfreeze....contact.
Charge.

You're adding your own requirement to getting to the spot that isn't supported in the rules...and making it a lot harder to make the call since you're making yourself have to split hairs with every little twitch the defender makes in order to decide block/charge....and the error will always penalize the defense.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

I've called plenty of fouls against the offense, so don't worry... I'm not screwing defenders or making playing good defense an impossible task.

Having both feet down at the spot of contact is the way I'm defining getting to that spot first. How would you define getting to a spot first, which would satisfy the first part of legally guarding a player?

Actually, you are putting defenders at a disadvantage if you require them to have "both feet down at the spot of contact." That's not part of the rule.

Let's break this down.

Here's a picture of the moment the defender obtained LGP.



At this moment the defender is guarding the ballhandler/dribbler. From that point on, the defender can move any direction he wants as long as he's not moving forward into the ballhandler/dribbler when/if contact takes place.

Now, here's a picture of the moment right before contact.



I'm not going to post frame-by-frame shots but you said yourself the defender was moving laterally at the moment of contact. Given the defender was moving laterally after obtaining - and never losing - LGP and the ballhandler/dribbler did not get head and shoulders around the defender, what - by rule - was the defender doing wrong at the time of contact? Keep in mind, the defender maintained LGP through the entire play meaning he's not required to have either or both feet on the floor when contact takes place to remain legal.

Play 1: No call.

Play 2: No call.

Play 3: Charge.

Play 4: Black ball.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Initial LGP, yes a player has to have both feet on the floor and facing the offensive player, however, keeping both feet on the floor is not a requirement for maintaining LGP. The defense may move laterally, or obliquely.

This is what I'm hearing...

Once the defender has gained initial LGP the dribbler has to go around the defender without any contact. Provided that the defender never makes a move towards the dribbler.

So unless it's clear that the dribbler gets to a spot first, and is then "run into" by the defender, we have a PC foul.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Thank you for addressing my concern over the part of the rule book that talks about a player getting to a spot first.

Others addressed that issue. Whether you listen is then or not is up to you.

Peace

[just another ref]

Too much emphasis on getting to the spot first. If both players are moving, they get to the point of contact at the same time. Then the issue is whether LGP was established followed by the direction of the players movement relative to each other.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Too much emphasis on getting to the spot first. If both players are moving, they get to the point of contact at the same time. Then the issue is whether LGP was established followed by the direction of the players movement relative to each other.

Thank you for putting it in simple terms. Call me an idiot if you want, but I feel the thing I was mainly referring to (getting to the spot first) was not being addressed. People were instead bringing up other parts of the rule on legally guarding a dribbler (gaining initial LGP).