You Decide (Clip)

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BatteryPowered

When I look at those two freeze frame shots...in the first one the girl eventually charged for the PC does NOT yet have the ball, therefore no LGP...in the second freeze frame the girl in red is NOT facing the player with the ball is NOT, except in only the most liberal definition, between the dribbler and the basket.

IMO...block.

So you are saying that a defensive player can only obtain (NFHS)/establish (NCAA and FIBA) a LGP against an offensive player who is in control of the ball?


And where in the Rules Book does it say that in order to obtain/establish a LGP that the initial position be on a line between the dribbler and the dribbler's team's basket?

MTD, Sr.

[Rich]

I watched it twice.

IMO, just about the easiest block I'd call all night.

[SWKS]

Originally Posted by AremRed

then she is not directly facing the dribbler.

Where does it say in 4-23 that you have to be directly facing the dribbler? It states that the torso must be facing to establish LGP but is not required to stay there.

Just some food for thought!!

[Raymond]

I can understand the official in the game getting it wrong, we all have.

But how in the hell can anybody watch this clip in 3 different speeds and still say this is a PC foul?

[SWKS]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I can understand the official in the game getting it wrong, we all have.

But how in the hell can anybody watch this clip in 3 different speeds and still say this is a PC foul?

Because by definition it is a PC and not a block again another reference (4-7) and tell my how the "heck" someone can watch it three times and not call it a PC

ART. 2

Charging is illegal personal contact caused by pushing or moving into an opponent's torso.

a. A player who is moving with the ball is required to stop or change direction to avoid contact if a defensive player has obtained a legal guarding position in his/her path.

b. If a guard has obtained a legal guarding position, the player with the ball must get his/her head and shoulders past the torso of the defensive player. If contact occurs on the torso of the defensive player, the dribbler is responsible for the contact.

c. There must be reasonable space between two defensive players or a defensive player and a boundary line to allow the dribbler to continue in his/her path. If there is less than 3 feet of space, the dribbler has the greater responsibility for the contact.

d. The player with the ball may not push the torso of the guard to gain an advantage to pass, shoot or dribble.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by SWKS

Because by definition it is a PC and not a block again another reference (4-7) and tell my how the "heck" someone can watch it three times and not call it a PC

...

Never had LGP in the first place, then B1 turns her right shoulder INTO A1 at point of contact.

[PG_Ref]

Originally Posted by SWKS

Because by definition it is a PC and not a block again another reference (4-7) and tell my how the "heck" someone can watch it three times and not call it a PC

ART. 2

Charging is illegal personal contact caused by pushing or moving into an opponent's torso.

a. A player who is moving with the ball is required to stop or change direction to avoid contact if a defensive player has obtained a legal guarding position in his/her path.

b. If a guard has obtained a legal guarding position, the player with the ball must get his/her head and shoulders past the torso of the defensive player. If contact occurs on the torso of the defensive player, the dribbler is responsible for the contact.

c. There must be reasonable space between two defensive players or a defensive player and a boundary line to allow the dribbler to continue in his/her path. If there is less than 3 feet of space, the dribbler has the greater responsibility for the contact.

d. The player with the ball may not push the torso of the guard to gain an advantage to pass, shoot or dribble.

It appears as though the differing views hinge on whether the defender was ever in the path of the dribbler. From the camera angle, I don't see where the defender ever was.

[APG]

Originally Posted by SWKS

Because by definition it is a PC and not a block again another reference (4-7) and tell my how the "heck" someone can watch it three times and not call it a PC

...

b. If a guard has obtained a legal guarding position, the player with the ball must get his/her head and shoulders past the torso of the defensive player. If contact occurs on the torso of the defensive player, the dribbler is responsible for the contact.

Now I know a player control foul doesn't require contact directly in the torso, but you highlight this portion when the contact is shoulder to shoulder. You should have highlighted A if you were trying to make your point.

[SWKS]

Originally Posted by APG

Now I know a player control foul doesn't require contact directly in the torso, but you highlight this portion when the contact is shoulder to shoulder. You should have highlighted A if you were trying to make your point.

Yes I do highlight it because she was in the path and the offensive player would have hit her in the torso had she not moved from the imminent contact which is legal.

I believe from my angle she is in LGP. She is in the path of the offensive player. It would be better if we were in the same position as the Lead in the video because I believe that is why he called PC.

It looks like a block in real time but I believe by definition and viewing "3" times or more that it is PC.

If you pause the video when contact is made, the defensive player is moving backward or in the same direction as the offensive player. The offensive player is not displaced and does not have her head and shoulders past the torso of the defender. Again by rule then it is a PC foul and not a block.

[Raymond]

By rule a defender cannot turn their shoulder into a ball-handler and still be legal.

[bob jenkins]

I'm very confused by the shoulder comments. I don't see B1 turning the shoulder into the offense; I see B1 turning the shoulder in front of A1 and that's where the contact is.

I think the call (no matter which you have) would be the same whether B1 turns or not (in this play).

[SmokeEater]

In the moment I don't have a problem with either call. Both can be easily justified by rule and it would depend on the officials interpretation of the guarding players LGP and positioning on the court. From the angle we have in the video it is made much harder to say for certain.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I'm very confused by the shoulder comments. I don't see B1 turning the shoulder into the offense; I see B1 turning the shoulder in front of A1 and that's where the contact is.

I think the call (no matter which you have) would be the same whether B1 turns or not (in this play).

Turns her shoulder or turns sideways into A1, take your pick. It's what I initially saw in the 12-second full speed clip, and watching in slow motion hasn't changed my opinion. B1 turns into A1. She most definitely did not turn away to absorb contact.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

By rule a defender cannot turn their shoulder into a ball-handler and still be legal.

!!!! Please tell me you did not write what I just read!

MTD, Sr.

[SNIPERBBB]

This is such an easy charge, at worst a no call as the contact is rather weak. Sure the defender could of opened a bit more to the dribbler. One of the core fundamentals in FED is that a a player is entitled to their spot on the floor as long as they got there first and legally.