Intentional

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BigT

What is the foul is to put the worst foul shooter on the line and he is not involved with the play and to keep the clock from running?

It's a play different from the one described in the OP. Thus, the different ruling.

Originally Posted by johnny d

Sounds like the coach had it right. Only question in this play is whether it is a personal foul (ball live) or technical foul (ball dead).

Coach was not right. If fouling at the end of game to stop the clock and force the other team to shoot free throws so they can get the ball back is an intentional foul then I guess every official I have ever seen officiate this situation has called it wrong.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Coach was not right. If fouling at the end of game to stop the clock and force the other team to shoot free throws so they can get the ball back is an intentional foul then I guess every official I have ever seen officiate this situation has called it wrong.

Grabbing a jersey to force that scenario is just about always an intentional foul around here. And we do call it that way.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BigT

Wouldnt you say most referees shy away from the IF unless it is super obvious to not get pulled into the spot light?

Yes, I wouldn't say that.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Coach was not right. If fouling at the end of game to stop the clock and force the other team to shoot free throws so they can get the ball back is an intentional foul then I guess every official I have ever seen officiate this situation has called it wrong.

Actually committing a foul, by playing over-agressive defense, is good. Grabbing a jersey just to stop the clock? That's going to draw an X every time around here.

[Pantherdreams]

In unrelated news that few to none of you care about in FIBA any foul before the ball is inbounded in the last 2 minutes is automatically unsportsmanlike.

Originally Posted by Smitty

Grabbing a jersey to force that scenario is just about always an intentional foul around here. And we do call it that way.

I understand. In my situation I was L tableside. A1 had the ball right in front of T. B1 tried to slap the ball away from A1 but misses and fouls A1. T does not call it as he is straight lined. A1 is just standing in place holding the ball. B1 tries another tactic and pulls A1's jersey, maybe about 2-3 inches. B1 then looks at T until he sees it and calls it. The coach screamed intentional but no way I am calling an INT after my partner missed the first foul and based on the tiny amount of shirt-holding going on.

[APG]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

In unrelated news that few to none of you care about in FIBA any foul before the ball is inbounded in the last 2 minutes is automatically unsportsmanlike.

In the NBA, outside of the final 2 of the 4th/OT, foul before the release is two shots automatically to the person who was fouled...inside of two, it's an away-from-the-play foul and thus 1 shot by anyone on the court at the time of the foul and the ball back.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by AremRed

I understand. In my situation I was L tableside. A1 had the ball right in front of T. B1 tried to slap the ball away from A1 but misses and fouls A1. T does not call it as he is straight lined. A1 is just standing in place holding the ball. B1 tries another tactic and pulls A1's jersey, maybe about 2-3 inches. B1 then looks at T until he sees it and calls it. The coach screamed intentional but no way I am calling an INT after my partner missed the first foul and based on the tiny amount of shirt-holding going on.

Sorry, but if you saw the first foul, you should have just called that first foul. End of game, I have no problem with a partner coming in to get this.

If neither of you saw the first foul, the only real option here is the INT.

B1 should have continued to play defense. There are lots of better options than grabbing the jersey, and most of them come with a remote chance of a steal.

Edited to add: This is how I would do it; if your area wants you to avoid intentional fouls like the plague, do it that way.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by aremred

defender went up to his player and held her jersey until my partner called it.

what?!?!

Originally Posted by Adam

If neither of you saw the first foul, the only real option here is the INT.

That depends on your definition of "legitimate attempt to play the ball/player". I'd rather not become a pioneer in calling INT's that are actually ants/minnows/misdemeanors.

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

what?!?!

Coach was male, player was female. Tsk tsk MD.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by Adam

Sorry, but if you saw the first foul, you should have just called that first foul. End of game, I have no problem with a partner coming in to get this.

If neither of you saw the first foul, the only real option here is the INT.

B1 should have continued to play defense. There are lots of better options than grabbing the jersey, and most of them come with a remote chance of a steal.

I agree.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by AremRed

That depends on your definition of "legitimate attempt to play the ball/player". I'd rather not become a pioneer in calling INT's that are actually ants/minnows/misdemeanors.

Sure there can be some disagreement on this, but pulling the jersey is not ever a legitimate attempt to play defense.

As far as being a pioneer, maybe you can be the first person in your area to realize the game situation, understand what the defense is likely to do, and then get the original foul so you don't find yourself in the compromising position of ignoring an obvious intentional foul.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by AremRed

That depends on your definition of "legitimate attempt to play the ball/player". I'd rather not become a pioneer in calling INT's that are actually ants/minnows/misdemeanors.

Honestly, I don't see a jersey grab as the ant/minnow/whatevers. Jersey grabs are as close to automatic as it gets; and when it's done in a clear attempt to stop the clock rather than play the ball, it's easier.

Look, I don't pick the nits on this; if it's borderline, I'll ask the player to do me a favor and at least pretend to play for the ball. But if they just skip all that and go straight to grabbing a jersey, they've given up playing defense.

I'd get more grief for not calling that than I'd get for calling it: from my assigner and, less importantly, from the coaches. Even the guilty player's coach would wonder why we didn't call that.