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Old Fri Aug 02, 2013, 03:30am
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Charging rule

I understand the defense needs to establish legal defensive position before the offense come charging at them to get a charging call, however i would like to know how early does the defense need to establish the position?

Does he need to establish the legal position before the offense take off, ram in and whether the offensive usual shooting habit (i.e 1-2 step before layup/ pivoting before shot needs to be taken in consideration, so if A1 is going for the layup in 1 direction D1 needs to be there to take the charge before A1 does the 1-2 step, or before he make the jump)

And the even more confusing thing would be when it happens within the restriction zone since no charge can occur in the zone. Does it mean that any charge contact that occurs in the zone cannot be called for a charge or the shot/jump/ram has to start within the zone (an easy example would be some guy jumps from free throw line and rams into a Defense who has established LDP inside the zone.)

And if an offensive crash into a Defensive with LDP inside the zone, no charge will be called, would the D1 be called for any defensive foul or just play on?

Don't know about you guys but seems the Zone is created to give the offense opportunity to play real rough.
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Old Fri Aug 02, 2013, 03:33am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by potato View Post
I understand the defense needs to establish legal defensive position before the offense come charging at them to get a charging call, however i would like to know how early does the defense need to establish the position?

Does he need to establish the legal position before the offense take off, ram in and whether the offensive usual shooting habit (i.e 1-2 step before layup/ pivoting before shot needs to be taken in consideration, so if A1 is going for the layup in 1 direction D1 needs to be there to take the charge before A1 does the 1-2 step, or before he make the jump)

And the even more confusing thing would be when it happens within the restriction zone since no charge can occur in the zone. Does it mean that any charge contact that occurs in the zone cannot be called for a charge or the shot/jump/ram has to start within the zone (an easy example would be some guy jumps from free throw line and rams into a Defense who has established LDP inside the zone.)

And if an offensive crash into a Defensive with LDP inside the zone, no charge will be called, would the D1 be called for any defensive foul or just play on?

Don't know about you guys but seems the Zone is created to give the offense opportunity to play real rough.

Which rule set are you asking about? High school, college, or NBE?
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Old Fri Aug 02, 2013, 03:35am
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First of all you would need to explain what code you are referring to. Not all levels use the restricted area.

And all that is required to get a charge is to establish LGP before makes contact with them. Also now the NF and NCAA Men's codes are different in this regard before a player goes airborne.

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Old Fri Aug 02, 2013, 03:50am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by potato View Post
I understand the defense needs to establish legal defensive position before the offense come charging at them to get a charging call, however i would like to know how early does the defense need to establish the position?

Does he need to establish the legal position before the offense take off, ram in and whether the offensive usual shooting habit (i.e 1-2 step before layup/ pivoting before shot needs to be taken in consideration, so if A1 is going for the layup in 1 direction D1 needs to be there to take the charge before A1 does the 1-2 step, or before he make the jump)

And the even more confusing thing would be when it happens within the restriction zone since no charge can occur in the zone. Does it mean that any charge contact that occurs in the zone cannot be called for a charge or the shot/jump/ram has to start within the zone (an easy example would be some guy jumps from free throw line and rams into a Defense who has established LDP inside the zone.)

And if an offensive crash into a Defensive with LDP inside the zone, no charge will be called, would the D1 be called for any defensive foul or just play on?

Don't know about you guys but seems the Zone is created to give the offense opportunity to play real rough.
To answer these in order...

1. Time and distance are not a factor in establishing legal guarding position on an opponent who has the ball or a stationary opponent who does not have the ball (NFHS 4-23-4a). Remember, always strive to use the correct terms.

1a. If an opponent with the ball is airborne the defender has to obtain legal guarding position before the opponent left the floor (NFHS 4-24-4b). As JRut mentions, the standard is different as of this season under NCAAM rules.

Regarding the RA, it's incorrect to say a defender cannot draw a PC foul in the area. Under NCAA rules:

Quote:
A secondary defender as defined in Rule 4-61 cannot establish initial legal guarding position in the restricted area for the purpose of drawing a player control foul/charge when defending a player who is in control of the ball (i.e., dribbling or shooting) or who has released the ball for a pass or try. When illegal contact occurs within this Restricted Area, such contact shall be called
a blocking foul, unless the contact is a flagrant foul.
a. When illegal contact occurs by the offensive player leading with a foot or unnatural, extended knee, or warding off with the arm, such contact shall be called a player-control foul.
b. When a player in control of the ball stops continuous movement toward the basket and then initiates illegal contact with a secondary defender in the restricted area, this is a player control foul.
The RA also doesn't prevent a defender from playing defense. A defender can try to block shots, etc. He/she just can't draw PC fouls apart from the situations mentioned above.

The addition of the Lower Defensive Box under NCAAW rules this coming season gives something back to the defense. If an offensive player begins her move inside the LDB, the RA doesn't matter.
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Old Fri Aug 02, 2013, 04:02am
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I realize there's some difference between NBA/FIBA and now even NCAA is having their own rule so i split between with RA & without RA.

Because someone mention shooting motion is not just the moment the shooting takes place but also the habitual movement of a shot for a layup it'd be gathering a 1-2 step before the jump. So as long as Defensive has Legal Guarding Position before the offense goes airborne it's legal irregardless of the usual shooting habitual movement yes?

And can i see the RA as a rule to prevent the 2nd defender to get a cheap charge, and doesn't apply to the 1st defender, so if a guy comes flying from 3 point line into the zone D1 will get his Charging call on A1 as long as he established legal position inside the zone before A1 goes airborne?

However since RA doesn't prevent the 2nd defender from jumping to block, would D1 be called for a blocking foul if contact made should he jump up for a block instead of standing still for an "illegal" charge which he would be called for blocking considering he had legal guarding position but illegal since he is the 2nd defender?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JetMetFan View Post
To answer these in order...

1. Time and distance are not a factor in establishing legal guarding position on an opponent who has the ball or a stationary opponent who does not have the ball (NFHS 4-23-4a). Remember, always strive to use the correct terms.

1a. If an opponent with the ball is airborne the defender has to obtain legal guarding position before the opponent left the floor (NFHS 4-24-4b). As JRut mentions, the standard is different as of this season under NCAAM rules.

Regarding the RA, it's incorrect to say a defender cannot draw a PC foul in the area. Under NCAA rules:



The RA also doesn't prevent a defender from playing defense. A defender can try to block shots, etc. He/she just can't draw PC fouls apart from the situations mentioned above.

The addition of the Lower Defensive Box under NCAAW rules this coming season gives something back to the defense. If an offensive player begins her move inside the LDB, the RA doesn't matter.
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Old Fri Aug 02, 2013, 07:21am
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You still didn't answer the question. Which rule set are you looking for? The rule is different from the NBA, NCAA men, NCAA women, FIBA, or NFHS. We need to know what rule set you're looking for (in all your questions) because depending on what rule set you're looking for an answer for, will mean you'll get a different answer because the rule is different.

For instance, under NBA and NCAA men rules, a defender must obtain a legal position before the offensive player starts his upward motion with the ball to shoot or pass. But for NCAA women and NFHS (and I want to say FIBA but I'd have to look that up), a defender has to get a legal guarding position before the player with the ball is airborne (meaning both feet are off the floor).

So again, answer specifically what rule set you're looking to get an answer for.
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Old Fri Aug 02, 2013, 08:02am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by potato View Post
IAnd can i see the RA as a rule to prevent the 2nd defender to get a cheap charge, and doesn't apply to the 1st defender, so if a guy comes flying from 3 point line into the zone D1 will get his Charging call on A1 as long as he established legal position inside the zone before A1 goes airborne?
What are the chances that the primary defender will be in the RA when the offensive player is by the three point line?

Quote:
However since RA doesn't prevent the 2nd defender from jumping to block, would D1 be called for a blocking foul if contact made should he jump up for a block instead of standing still for an "illegal" charge which he would be called for blocking considering he had legal guarding position but illegal since he is the 2nd defender?
It could be a legal play (shot block), or it could be a blocking foul. It can't be a charge. Too many people think it *must* be a defensive foul and that's not true.

(All of the above subject to the rules code being used, of course.)
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Old Fri Aug 02, 2013, 09:51am
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I mention 3 point line just to make sure the offense is jumping from outside the RA, but i guess doesn't matter whether he jumps from inside or outside the RA right? As long as he doesn't stop his motion.

Well i saw a clip where Scottie Pippen took a Charge from Karl Malone on a 1 on 1 fastbreak, not sure whether RA exist back then though.

So the non charge rule applies only to non primary defenders yes primary can still take charge in RA?

What if it's a pick & roll, how would you then determine who is the primary defender?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
What are the chances that the primary defender will be in the RA when the offensive player is by the three point line?



It could be a legal play (shot block), or it could be a blocking foul. It can't be a charge. Too many people think it *must* be a defensive foul and that's not true.

(All of the above subject to the rules code being used, of course.)
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Old Fri Aug 02, 2013, 09:52am
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No way possible the primary defender on a offensive player starting from outside the 3-point line is going to be the primary defender. Therefore that part of your hypothetical question is ridiculous and doesn't need an answer.
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Old Fri Aug 02, 2013, 09:54am
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I'm looking at NBA & FIBA international, but would be interesting to know how other leagues sees it.

When you say NBA NCAA Moving up motion, that means any habitual movement prior the shot, i.e 1-2 step for layup, or pivoting for a jumper so you need to be in position real early in order to get legal guarding position yes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by APG View Post
You still didn't answer the question. Which rule set are you looking for? The rule is different from the NBA, NCAA men, NCAA women, FIBA, or NFHS. We need to know what rule set you're looking for (in all your questions) because depending on what rule set you're looking for an answer for, will mean you'll get a different answer because the rule is different.
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Old Fri Aug 02, 2013, 10:03am
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Originally Posted by potato View Post
So the non charge rule applies only to non primary defenders yes primary can still take charge in RA?

What if it's a pick & roll, how would you then determine who is the primary defender?
Secondary defenders only -- and that term is defined and changes a bit on a rebound and a fast-break.

By knowing the game and the definitions.
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Old Fri Aug 02, 2013, 10:45am
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In a pick & roll should the offense pass the primary defender who is being screened would the switched defender be seen as Primary or Secondary defender?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Secondary defenders only -- and that term is defined and changes a bit on a rebound and a fast-break.

By knowing the game and the definitions.
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Old Fri Aug 02, 2013, 10:51am
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What does the definition of secondary defender say?
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Old Fri Aug 02, 2013, 01:37pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by potato View Post
I'm looking at NBA & FIBA international, but would be interesting to know how other leagues sees it.

When you say NBA NCAA Moving up motion, that means any habitual movement prior the shot, i.e 1-2 step for layup, or pivoting for a jumper so you need to be in position real early in order to get legal guarding position yes?
No...it literally means when the ball starts upward to shoot or pass the ball.
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Old Thu Aug 08, 2013, 01:16pm
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Just wondering if Dribbler passed the primary defender & ran into another defender who has been in the zone to defend his own man, will the defender the dribbler ran into be called for blocking since he wasn't there to purposely block the dribbler?
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