How much can ball handler use his arm?

[potato]

It's pretty common to use Ball Handlers using their non handling hand to protect the ball, create space and more often using it to lock defenders behind them when they overtake them. However is there a line between what is legal and what is not?

For example is it legal to dribble side by side with the defender with your non-handling arm stretching outwards to create space between you and the defender (without overtaking the defender).

Also is it legal to use your arm/hand to press on a defenders upper leg/waist so the defender can't even move to block your path? Usually this happens when the ball handler is facing his back on the defender. Most of the time i see the handler just extend his arm so he can get a path but today i saw some guys pressing on the defenders upper leg that he can't even move sideway to defend.

It would be an offensive if the action is pretty obvious like pushing etc but using the arm to block/prevent defender's movement is there a line between legal & illegal?

[justacoach]

Originally Posted by potato

It's pretty common to use Ball Handlers using their non handling hand to protect the ball, create space and more often using it to lock defenders behind them when they overtake them. However is there a line between what is legal and what is not?

For example is it legal to dribble side by side with the defender with your non-handling arm stretching outwards to create space between you and the defender (without overtaking the defender).

Also is it legal to use your arm/hand to press on a defenders upper leg/waist so the defender can't even move to block your path? Usually this happens when the ball handler is facing his back on the defender. Most of the time i see the handler just extend his arm so he can get a path but today i saw some guys pressing on the defenders upper leg that he can't even move sideway to defend.

It would be an offensive if the action is pretty obvious like pushing etc but using the arm to block/prevent defender's movement is there a line between legal & illegal?

Suggest you view these actions in light of 4-19-1 which follows in part stating...
Art 1..A personal foul is a player foul which involves illegal contact with an opponent while a ball is live, which hinders an opponent from performing normal defensive and offensive movements.
You may also want to factor in the concept of rhythm, speed, balance and quickness. Bear in mind there is nothing that precludes a player from holding their arm out in the absence of illegal contact.

[BigBaldGuy]

What you just described woud you allow the defender to do those things against the ball handler? The ball handler doesnt get special treatment because he/she has the ball. I personally think we let the offense get away with way too much opposed to what we call on the defense (also in the post). If the defender has established LGP...then we need to penalize "illegal" contact by the ball handler when it affects the defenders RSBQ.

[justacoach]

Originally Posted by BigBaldGuy

What you just described woud you allow the defender to do those things against the ball handler? The ball handler doesnt get special treatment because he/she has the ball. I personally think we let the offense get away with way too much opposed to what we call on the defense (also in the post). If the defender has established LGP...then we need to penalize "illegal" contact by the ball handler when it affects the defenders RSBQ.

Seems you missed my entire point. The rule cited uses the neutral term 'player' which is applied equally to "offensive" and "defensive" players trying to perform their tasks.
By the same token I totally concur that RSBQ applies to ALL players.

[JRutledge]

They cannot use their arms to create contact and displace defenders, but that is not the same as simply sticking out an arm and nothing happening. It is just like anything else in the game, they may do something that is potentially illegal but is not illegal because it did not create contact or displace anyone. I say this because many coaches want us to call a foul for a ball handler that did neither or act like the only reason something happened was because of an off hand of a ball handler/dribbler. And a lot of times defenders have their hands on a ball handler and the reaction is the movement of the ball handler in response.

All judgment calls like most things we do and what one official sees as an advantage another official might see as a play-on.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BigBaldGuy

What you just described woud you allow the defender to do those things against the ball handler? The ball handler doesnt get special treatment because he/she has the ball. I personally think we let the offense get away with way too much opposed to what we call on the defense (also in the post). If the defender has established LGP...then we need to penalize "illegal" contact by the ball handler when it affects the defenders RSBQ.

When an offensive player pushes with their arm, this is a foul on the offensive player regardless of whether the defender has LGP. LGP is only relevant for block vs. charge. All other types of fouls (this one is illegal use of hands) are independent of LGP.

[Travelling Man]

Play On or "call a foul"--this is always a dilemma. How do we percieve what the "intent" was in sticking out their arm (i.e., chicken winging it)?
If advantage is created, then whistile it is what I do.
In cases where the offensive dribbler is using it to ward off a pesky defeneder who is actually D'ing him/her up pretty good---then I'll call that offensive foul. I don't err toward "just giving" offensive players rights of way.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Travelling Man

Play On or "call a foul"--this is always a dilemma. How do we percieve what the "intent" was in sticking out their arm....

Perhaps the quotes mean you know this. Intent, in this case, has nothing to do with it.

[Rob1968]

Let's take a look at 4-24-5 . . . "It is not legal to use hands on an opponent which in any way inhibits the freedom of movement of the opponent . . ."
And, more the to OP-
4-24-7 . . ."It is not legal to use the hand and/or forearm to prevent an opponent from attacking the ball during a dribble or when throwing for goal."
Of course, Basketball Rules Fundamentals 10. applies..."Personal fouls always involve illegal contact . . ."

Many coaches teach ballhandlers to set the off hand/forearm, in a position to discourage the defender from reaching in, and it becomes a moment of judgement by the covering official as to whether contact on that arm constitutes a foul, by the offense or defense.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by justacoach

Seems you missed my entire point. The rule cited uses the neutral term 'player' which is applied equally to "offensive" and "defensive" players trying to perform their tasks.
By the same token I totally concur that RSBQ applies to ALL players.

My guess, especially given the timing of the posts, is that BigBaldGuywas respondiing to the OP, and not to you.

[Travelling Man]

"mens rea" or gulity mind. As officials we are tasked with discerning what the intent is when we see a player doing this. From my perch the dribbler who is "warding off" with their off arm is usually incapable of executing sufficiently (or more appropriately not having been coached on how to) use effective dribble drive moves to evade the pesky defender. I whistle it--and I've not had a coach question the whistle--they usually shout to their player "just drive past him or pass it".

[APG]

Originally Posted by Travelling Man

"mens rea" or gulity mind. As officials we are tasked with discerning what the intent is when we see a player doing this. From my perch the dribbler who is "warding off" with their off arm is usually incapable of executing sufficiently (or more appropriately not having been coached on how to) use effective dribble drive moves to evade the pesky defender. I whistle it--and I've not had a coach question the whistle--they usually shout to their player "just drive past him or pass it".

What other reason is a dribbler doing this other than to protect the ball from the defender? And what does it matter what his intent was?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Travelling Man

"mens rea" or gulity mind. As officials we are tasked with discerning what the intent is when we see a player doing this. From my perch the dribbler who is "warding off" with their off arm is usually incapable of executing sufficiently (or more appropriately not having been coached on how to) use effective dribble drive moves to evade the pesky defender. I whistle it--and I've not had a coach question the whistle--they usually shout to their player "just drive past him or pass it".

No, we aren't tasked with any such thing. Intent means nothing on this play. All that matters is what actually happens, not what was intended by either of the players.

Pushing or impeding the defender in this manner isn't legal, even if the dribbler is merely trying to give the defender a better look at his new ink.

[Travelling Man]

lol @ "get a better look at his ink"....too funny

[BigBaldGuy]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

When an offensive player pushes with their arm, this is a foul on the offensive player regardless of whether the defender has LGP. LGP is only relevant for block vs. charge. All other types of fouls (this one is illegal use of hands) are independent of LGP.

I agree...thank you for the clarifying.