Intentional foul and sub?

NFHS rules. A1 is on a fast break, goes up for a layup. B1 intentionally fouls A1. A1 goes down hard, stays down for a minute. Trainer and coach come out to look at him. A1 walks off under his own power to the bench. Coach A asks if A1's substitute can shoot the free throws, and later have A1 enter the game. What are the rules governing this situation? I have searched the books, but have not found anything.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by AremRed

NFHS rules. A1 is on a fast break, goes up for a layup. B1 intentionally fouls A1. A1 goes down hard, stays down for a minute. Trainer and coach come out to look at him. A1 walks off under his own power to the bench. Coach A asks if A1's substitute can shoot the free throws, and later have A1 enter the game. What are the rules governing this situation? I have searched the books, but have not found anything.

Once the trainer, and coach, come out onto the court, then A1 must be replaced (assuming an eligible substitute is available), or Team A must request, and be granted a timeout. If replaced, A's substitute will shoot the free throws, and A1 may reenter the game after the clock has been started properly.

3-3-4: A player who has been replaced, or directed to leave the game shall
not re-enter before the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has been
started properly following his/her replacement.

3-3-6: A player who has been injured to the extent that the coach or any
other bench personnel is beckoned and/or comes onto the court shall be directed
to leave the game, unless a time-out is requested by, and granted to, his/her team
and the situation can be corrected by the end of the time-out.

8-2: The free throw(s) awarded because of a personal foul shall be attempted by the
offended player. If such player must withdraw because of an injury or
disqualification, his/her substitute shall attempt the throw(s) unless no substitute
is available, in which case any teammate may attempt the throw(s) as selected by
the team captain or head coach.

Confucius says, "Must sit a tick, don’t have to play a tick".

[JRutledge]

Only the sub for that player can shoot the FTs. The rules were quoted by Billy properly. What you might want to be aware of the NCAA rules are different and without getting too detailed the opposing coach can in some cases select the shooter if a player behaves as hurt. So do not get talked into do that in a NF Rules game.

Peace

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Only the sub for that player can shoot the FTs. The rules were quoted by Billy properly. What you might want to be aware of the NCAA rules are different and without getting too detailed the opposing coach can in some cases select the shooter if a player behaves as hurt. So do not get talked into do that in a NF Rules game.

Peace

For those who need to know: That would be NCAAM rules that are different. NCAAW rules are the same as NFHS in this case.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

For those who need to know: That would be NCAAM rules that are different. NCAAW rules are the same as NFHS in this case.

And someone trying to suggest you apply the NCAA rule would not care or know the difference.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Only the sub for that player can shoot the FTs.

To look at some crazy, hypothetical, once-in-million-years, permutations of this situation (as some of us often like to do): If A1 is unable, due to the injury, to attempt the free throws, and if there are no eligible substitutes available on Team A (injury, illness, disqualification), then the coach of Team A must select a free throw shooter from the other four Team A players on the court. If, however, the only available substitute on the Team A bench is A6, who is legally ineligible because has not yet "sat his tick" after a previous substitution (it's possible under a rare circumstance, but maybe not in the original post), then A6 must replace A1 and must attempt his free throws. The rule that a team must play with five players "trumps" the "sit a tick" rule.

Of course, its easier for all involved if A1 just "sucks it up" and shoots his own free throws.

Note: Favorite quote from a recent article in Sports Illustrated on baseball's designated hitter rule: "The designated hitter rule is like letting someone else take Wilt Chamberlain's free throws." (Rick Wise, pitcher, 15 career home runs)

[Bad Zebra]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

The rule that a team must play with five players "trumps" the "sit a tick" rule.

Based on what? Is that actually a rule or an assumption? I agree with you...seems like a logical way to do it, but I was wondering if that was an opinion of the Fed.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Bad Zebra

Based on what? Is that actually a rule or an assumption? I agree with you...seems like a logical way to do it, but I was wondering if that was an opinion of the Fed.

Yes, it is.

It's been discussed here before -- you could try a search (recognizign that that doesn't always work well)

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Bad Zebra

Based on what? Is that actually a rule or an assumption? Seems like a logical way to do it, but I was wondering if that was an opinion, of the Fed.

Great question Bad Zebra. One thing that I know, for sure, is that it's an opinion shared by most veteran Forum members, but, of course, that really doesn't hold any NFHS weight.

Somewhere on the Forum, is the very rare situation of A6 being replaced by substitute A2 before the first free throw by A1 in a one and one situation. After hitting the rim, while jostling for position on a possible rebound (the ball eventually goes in the basket), A3 is injured, and the coach, and trainer, after being beckoned, and coming onto the court, decide that A3 must come out of the game. As a result of injuries, illness, and disqualifications, the only available substitute on the Team A bench is A6, who, because the clock never started (remember that the ball went in), has not yet sat out his "tick". The opinion expressed by most veteran Forum members was that A6, while not having sat out a requisite "tick", must be allowed to replace A3 because the rule that a team must play with five players "trumps" the "sit a tick" rule.

Maybe it's in Nevadaref's archives? Maybe it came to me in a dream? Maybe some veteran "esteemed" Forum members can help me out here?

[BillyMac]

8.2 SITUATION B: A1 is fouled and will be shooting two free throws. After A1’s
first free-throw attempt, B6 (Team B’s only remaining eligible substitute) replaces
B2. A1’s second free-throw attempt is unsuccessful. During rebounding action for
A1’s missed second free-throw attempt, and before the clock starts, A1 pushes B3
in the back causing B3 to roll an ankle. Team B is in the bonus. B3 is unable to
immediately continue playing. Team B requests and is granted a time out in order
to allow B3 to recover from the ankle injury so as to remain in the game. B3 is still
not able to play after the time out has ended. RULING: B2 may return to the game
and replace B3 and shoot B3’s free throw attempts despite having been replaced
since he/she is the only available substitute. (3-3-4)

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Maybe some veteran "esteemed" Forum members can help me out here?

Does this get me closer to becoming an esteemed Forum member?

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And someone trying to suggest you apply the NCAA rule would not care or know the difference.

Peace

Just trying to be accurate for the forum clientele. That's kind of what we do around here.

So a team can sub a better FT shooter for the "injured" player, shoot the FT's, and have the "injured" player reenter the game at the next dead ball or with a timeout? Seems like a big advantage to allow a better FT shooter to shoot.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by AremRed

So a team can sub a better FT shooter for the "injured" player, shoot the FT's, and have the "injured" player reenter the game at the next dead ball or with a timeout? Seems like a big advantage to allow a better FT shooter to shoot.

Well, first, the OP stated it was an intentional foul. I believe all rule sets are the same in that case (with the possible exception of FIBA). Second, how many times do you actually see this? I might have a sub shoot FTs once every season or two. Is it possible to cheat the system? Yeah, but that potential is trumped by the safety benefits of doing it the way it's done now. Players are less likely to try to play through an injury.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by AremRed

So a team can sub a better FT shooter for the "injured" player, shoot the FT's, and have the "injured" player reenter the game at the next dead ball?

Don't forget the "sit a tick" rule. If the poor free throw shooting "injured" player is their best ball handler, or top scorer, or top defender, or their tallest front line player, and top rebounder, that player may have to sit on the bench for quite some time, possibly several minutes. It's seems like a small price to pay to get a good free throw shooter on the line, but it could come back to bite the coach in the butt. Add that to the fact that even the best free throw shooter can miss a few in a row, and even the worst free throw shooter can make a few in a row, so "taking advantage of the rules" becomes a real gamble, probably a good gamble but, nevertheless, a gamble.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Just trying to be accurate for the forum clientele. That's kind of what we do around here.

It was not the point. The point is someone is going to try to suggest a rule that most here will never be using. It happens all the time. I really do not care if it is women's or men's basketball, people still use the term NCAA as an all encompassing term. And if you want to be honest, the general public pays very little attention to Women's basketball (ratings, SC highlights), so does it really matter at this point?

Peace