Camps......How many and how much $$$$$

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by AremRed

[LIST]
There is also a D1 camp 6 miles from my house but it costs 580. I'm probably not going to that one :P

I question any camp that costs that much, at any level. It may have good instruction but someone is making very good money on it. There are going to other very good camps that you can learn just as much at for 1/2 that or less.

[Toren]

5 camps

tryout camp (150) in May
exposure camp (200) in June
tryout camp (175) in June
exposure camp (425) in July
exposure camp (495) in July

The June tryout camp and July exposure camps I had to rent a car and get a hotel.

Luckily, I was able to find another referee to share a room with, so the costs of hotel and car were halved.

I already told wife, this summer will not be repeated. I'm thinking 3-4 camps from now on.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I question any camp that costs that much, at any level. It may have good instruction but someone is making very good money on it. There are going to other very good camps that you can learn just as much at for 1/2 that or less.

I doubt this is an instruction camp. I imagine it costs so much because you are trying to get picked up by D1 conferences, probably has fewer than 30 campers, and the clinicians are paid. The guy in charge may make a lot, but probably less than you think.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by AremRed

I doubt this is an instruction camp. I imagine it costs so much because you are trying to get picked up by D1 conferences, probably has fewer than 30 campers, and the clinicians are paid. The guy in charge may make a lot, but probably less than you think.

All D1 clinicians are paid. And don't forget the tournament pays the supervisor for filling each officiating slot.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

All D1 clinicians are paid. And don't forget the tournament pays the supervisor for filling each officiating slot.

The same goes for the local official's association camps. They pay the clinicians there too to work those games and use the money the officials would be paid for those clinicians to sit there all day and evaluate those that paid to attend camps. As well as insurance or other expenses the camp has to deal with like food or water or even in some cases hotels.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The same goes for the local official's association camps. They pay the clinicians there too to work those games and use the money the officials would be paid for those clinicians to sit there all day and evaluate those that paid to attend camps. As well as insurance or other expenses the camp has to deal with like food or water or even in some cases hotels.

Peace

Our local association charges about $60 per camper and we don't pay the clinicians anything -- it's volunteer work for us. Football and basketball. And I'm willing to be our campers learn more than they would in some camps. Of course they can't come to our camp and *try out* for anything...

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich

Our local association charges about $60 per camper and we don't pay the clinicians anything -- it's volunteer work for us. Football and basketball. And I'm willing to be our campers learn more than they would in some camps. Of course they can't come to our camp and *try out* for anything...

I look at it like this. If I am going to sit there all day from 9:00am to 9:00pm, I think you should get paid. And when I am doing that 2 days in a row and I could be doing a lot of other things for money. Even the camp that I volunteered at last weekend the assignor made sure we did not stay there all day and worked games in the same tournament in between the times we were there. But no one else does it that way and pays their clinicians as they should. There is a league that I am involved in that we ran as a camp through an association and it was 3 days a week and we used clinicians who were not around the corner to cover courts and give instruction. Of course those people should get paid IMO.

Also most camps are run by assignors who ask officials with no other ties to the assignor and those assignors ask those people to show up and make their camp worth it to campers. So the assignor could take home all the money, but you are paying for people's time as much as their knowledge. And when many of the guys are D1, college and state finals officials why not pay them? And our camps are also for clinic credit which goes to post season consideration and now promotion consideration. If you make it volunteer you might not get the staff to work.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by AremRed

I doubt this is an instruction camp. I imagine it costs so much because you are trying to get picked up by D1 conferences, probably has fewer than 30 campers, and the clinicians are paid. The guy in charge may make a lot, but probably less than you think.

If are charging that much, they're making a lot of money.

And an instruction camp should cost more than a try-out camp. It takes more people to run. Try-out camps could be free with the assignor making all the money off the game fees that the tourney pays them.

Lets go through the numbers...

Camper pays $500 to work 5 games (could be 1-2 more or less but that is a common amount and it makes the math easy). That is $100 per game PER official.

The tournament host also pays $60-100 per game for the officials....maybe even more in some areas.

So, per game, for a 3-person game, there is about $400 going into the pot. Exactly how much of that do you think the camp organizer is paying the observer for each game? $100, maybe $150....for 4-6 games in a day. Even if it is $200/game, there is still another $200/game going to the organizer.

The size of the camp isn't really a big factor...more campers, more clinicians. Those cost should scale linearly. In fact, most of the costs should scale with the number of campers.

Sure, there are some other fixed expenses but don't believe for one second that someone isn't making good money on a $500/camper camp. I've been to plenty of camps (with several D1 and D2 officials as clinicians, and D2 and D3 assignors) and none of them cost anywhere near that...and some even included lodging and food for less than that.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by AremRed

I doubt this is an instruction camp. I imagine it costs so much because you are trying to get picked up by D1 conferences, probably has fewer than 30 campers, and the clinicians are paid. The guy in charge may make a lot, but probably less than you think.

Let's take a look. 30 campers at $580 a pop. ($17,400)
Say each campers works 5 games, that's 150 slots (50 games) * $25 paid by the tournament director ($3750).

Say supervisor pays 10 observers $750 to show up ($7500).
Estimate 2 nights of lodging for camp staff ($3000).
Estimate food costs for pizza and beers ($1000)

That's $21,150 coming in and $11,500 going out. For a net profit of $9,650.

That's for a small camp. I've worked camps that charged $450 for 75 campers who've covered about 100 games. Do the math on that.

[Brad]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Let's take a look. 30 campers at $580 a pop. ($17,400)
Say each campers works 5 games, that's 150 slots (50 games) * $25 paid by the tournament director ($3750).

Say supervisor pays 10 observers $750 to show up ($7500).
Estimate 2 nights of lodging for camp staff ($3000).
Estimate food costs for pizza and beers ($1000)

That's $21,150 coming in and $11,500 going out. For a net profit of $9,650.

That's for a small camp. I've worked camps that charged $450 for 75 campers who've covered about 100 games. Do the math on that.

The number of campers are probably closers to 50-60 unless attendance is way down since 2-3 years ago.

Not sure about number of games—it varies from tournament to tournament. The more campers, the better—because the games will be worked regardless of the number of officials on hand!

Pay for the observers seems high—but I am not sure.

Also, I would bet that they get at least some of the rooms free from the hotel for having the officials book there.

They are definitely money makers, but that doesn't mean that they are not also worthwhile. They provide a lot of value and certainly provide the only opportunity at present to get hired into D1 leagues.

I agree that the current system is not the best, but it will take one conference taking the lead and making big changes before anyone else does. Plus, the other conferences would have to see some advantage of making the change.

I could see some of the consortiums hiring officials as employees and limiting those officials to only working their games, limiting the number of games per week, etc. Much different ballgame with employees vs contractors, so I'm not sure that will happen anytime soon—but if it does, I would bet it would be in one of the consortiums with 3+ conferences, rather than a single conference.

[Multiple Sports]

Has anyone heard from any supervisors regarding getting picked up........

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by Multiple Sports

Has anyone heard from any supervisors regarding getting picked up........

In my experience that is 100% supervisor dependent. I've gotten picked up a week after camp (like I did this year) or waited until a week before the season. Some supervisors are just more proactive about hiring than others

-Josh

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Multiple Sports

Has anyone heard from any supervisors regarding getting picked up........

or getting fired.

I know that in one conference I work in that new hires have already been notified.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I question any camp that costs that much, at any level. It may have good instruction but someone is making very good money on it. There are going to other very good camps that you can learn just as much at for 1/2 that or less.

too bad those camps are not going to have the assignors for the Big Ten, MAC, Summit, Big 12, Ohio Valley.......and the list goes on and on.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by johnny d

too bad those camps are not going to have the assignors for the Big Ten, MAC, Summit, Big 12, Ohio Valley.......and the list goes on and on.

The point remains, you're paying money for access only and they're making very good money. You're not paying for the instruction. How many jobs do you know of do you have to pay for the interview?

And a good number of people going to those camps are never going to get picked up by any of those assignors, ever. For most, they can get all the same benefit for 1/2 the price.

If it makes you fell good to tell your buddies you paid to meet the Big Ten assignor and paid him a lot of money to watch you work a game, then have fun with that.