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Old Mon May 20, 2013, 03:13pm
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Video Request:Spurs-Grizzlies End of 1st Quarter Foul on Half-Court Attempt (Clipped)

At the end of the first quarter Ginobili was in the midst of attempting a try 10 feet or so past midcourt when a foul was called and he was given three free throws. While watching live I thought it was an obvious foul and he would be awarded three free throws. They reviewed the play, but not sure what was reviewable on the play (not familiar with NBA rules on this).

Upon replay there were some interesting twists to the play that brought up the following questions:

1) If in the middle of a try, an airborne A1 fumbles the ball in a manner that appears to not be recoverable in order to complete the try, but is fouled by B1 prior to coming back to the ground, do you have a shooting foul? I have concluded that this is a non-shooting foul since the try ended when you deem the fumble made the try certain to be unsuccessful.

Would anyone consider making this particular play a non-shooting foul?

It appeared that Ginobili fumbled the ball while trying to bring it up for the try and prior to any contact. It might have been possible for him to still recover it mid-air, which makes my question irrelevant on this play IMO because this would mean the try is not certain to be over.

2) The replay did not show nearly as much contact as I originally thought, but would like to see it again. How could C better position himself to see the play better? Or was he where he needed to be?

3) Since Ginobili had already began fumbling the ball and there wasn't as much contact upon reviewing the replay, would anyone no-call this contact? I would not have no-called this since he may have been able to recover and complete the try had there not been contact. However, if you consider the fumble unrecoverable, I suppose one could argue the contact incidental.
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Old Mon May 20, 2013, 05:08pm
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1. Whether it's a shooting foul has nothing to do with when the try ends.
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Old Mon May 20, 2013, 05:31pm
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Something to think about...

The player lost control of the ball in a manner that was not a shot. Is there any difference between him passing the ball and fumbling the ball as far as it relates to fouls?

I think that if he doesn't have the ball he isn't a shooter. He might still be fouled, or course, but you can't shoot if you don't have the ball.
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Old Mon May 20, 2013, 06:47pm
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Want to point out they did not go to replay. They just gathered at halfcourt to discuss the play. Anyhow, here is the play (or will be once it's done processing):

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Old Mon May 20, 2013, 09:02pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam View Post
1. Whether it's a shooting foul has nothing to do with when the try ends.
I am not sure I follow. He is not actually an airborne shooter since he never released the ball for a try. He began the habitual shooting motion so he was in the act of a try prior to the fumble. But, the fumble, deemed to have led to the certainty the try would be successful ends the try. So, he is not an airborne shooter and he is no longer in the act of a try, so it cannot be a shooting foul.

Or are you simply saying that the only determining factor for a shooting foul is whether the A1 was "shooting or in the act of a try"?
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Old Mon May 20, 2013, 09:08pm
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C Position

In regards to #2, Neal ran right in front of the C as the contact occurred, so not sure how good of a look he had at the play. Not sure what else he could have done differently.
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Old Mon May 20, 2013, 10:31pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinRef View Post
I am not sure I follow. He is not actually an airborne shooter since he never released the ball for a try. He began the habitual shooting motion so he was in the act of a try prior to the fumble. But, the fumble, deemed to have led to the certainty the try would be successful ends the try. So, he is not an airborne shooter and he is no longer in the act of a try, so it cannot be a shooting foul.

Or are you simply saying that the only determining factor for a shooting foul is whether the A1 was "shooting or in the act of a try"?
You mentioned the end of the try. Normally, the end of the try is not at all relevant to whether a foul is a shooting foul. I don't think I'd have called this a shooting foul, but that stems more from the fact that he never really gathered the ball to start his habitual shooting motion.

If he had gathered, started his try, and then fumbled prior to being fouled, I'd have the same ruling. Thinking this through, I can see that it's likely because the try was over and there is no airborne shooter since the try was never actually released. That would be a sasquatch, though, and it's likely to look more like the video play and be ruled as if there never was a try to begin with.

I only responded because there are a lot of non-shooting fouls that happen before the try is over (shooter is fouled after landing) and plenty of shooting fouls that happen after a try is completed (airborne shooter does not mean the try is still ongoing).
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Old Tue May 21, 2013, 12:26am
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On this play, now that I've watched it, I have him shooting at the time of the foul. While I don't think he as solid control, I don't think it was out of player control yet...and the foul made sure he lost it.
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Old Tue May 21, 2013, 09:05am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam View Post
You mentioned the end of the try. Normally, the end of the try is not at all relevant to whether a foul is a shooting foul. I don't think I'd have called this a shooting foul, but that stems more from the fact that he never really gathered the ball to start his habitual shooting motion.

If he had gathered, started his try, and then fumbled prior to being fouled, I'd have the same ruling. Thinking this through, I can see that it's likely because the try was over and there is no airborne shooter since the try was never actually released. That would be a sasquatch, though, and it's likely to look more like the video play and be ruled as if there never was a try to begin with.

I only responded because there are a lot of non-shooting fouls that happen before the try is over (shooter is fouled after landing) and plenty of shooting fouls that happen after a try is completed (airborne shooter does not mean the try is still ongoing).
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Old Tue May 21, 2013, 11:58am
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No way was that a fumble. It was a try.
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Old Wed May 22, 2013, 12:41pm
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I don't even see a foul from the angles shown in the video. More like a flop on the part of Manu.
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Old Wed May 22, 2013, 01:27pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #olderthanilook View Post
I don't even see a foul from the angles shown in the video. More like a flop on the part of Manu.
There is definitely a foul that prevents Manu from raising his right arm.
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Old Wed May 22, 2013, 03:44pm
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Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
There is definitely a foul that prevents Manu from raising his right arm.
Ok...I can see a little contact there. In slo mo, the contact occurs after he loses the ball on his hip.

Manu is a left handed shooter too. He embellished the contact to his right arm with some antics there.

Last edited by #olderthanilook; Wed May 22, 2013 at 03:47pm.
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Old Wed May 22, 2013, 03:54pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #olderthanilook View Post
Ok...I can see a little contact there. In slo mo, the contact occurs after he loses the ball on his hip.

Manu is a left handed shooter too. He embellished the contact to his right arm with some antics there.
In the air? How do you embellish in the air?

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Old Wed May 22, 2013, 03:58pm
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I see no try. If this is a foul, it's not a shooting foul... that said, I see no foul either.
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