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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 13, 2013, 01:21pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
If that player were fouled as he was trying to throw the ball and it never got out of his hands (or was knocked askew such that it never got anywhere near the backboard) would you be putting them on the line for 3 shots? What was the player trying to do? That is what we're paid to determine. The definition of try does not include what the ball hits, only what the player is trying to do. It can even be a try when it hits nothing.

If it was with 1 second left, I'd tend to consider it a shot. However, when there is plenty of time for 2-3 passes or for the ball to bounce back as far as it did, I'm not assuming it was a shot unless it looks like a shot.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 13, 2013, 01:23pm
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Originally Posted by dvboa View Post

On this play I would have to say no team control off the first release. Can't tell if the ball is touched by the defender but you can easily argue this was a shot attempt especially without video replay. It would be a harder sell to call this a backcourt violation.
Watch B3's reaction after he throws the ball, that the reaction of a player who threw an errant pass, IMO. I had already been on the side of "pass" when the video first came out. This is the first time I paid attention to B3 after he threw the ball. Now I'm more convinced.
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Last edited by Raymond; Mon May 13, 2013 at 03:03pm.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 13, 2013, 02:48pm
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Eh, looks like very little time left on the clock judging from everyone's reaction to the hail mary. I'm not guessing intent here as to shot versus pass. No BC violation on my part.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 13, 2013, 05:23pm
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What I'd like to find out is how does an official reconcile this play if the call is ruled to be an inadvertent whistle? Would you count the basket based on when the official blew his whistle, which was at the point where the offensive player touched the ball?
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 13, 2013, 05:38pm
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Originally Posted by Afrosheen View Post
What I'd like to find out is how does an official reconcile this play if the call is ruled to be an inadvertent whistle? Would you count the basket based on when the official blew his whistle, which was at the point where the offensive player touched the ball?
You would go to the POI for the whistle.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 13, 2013, 05:42pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Afrosheen View Post
What I'd like to find out is how does an official reconcile this play if the call is ruled to be an inadvertent whistle? Would you count the basket based on when the official blew his whistle, which was at the point where the offensive player touched the ball?
For some reason, I can't hear the sound. If the whistle blew when the player had the ball, you give the offense the ball for a throw in at the spot nearest where he touched the ball.

If the whistle blew while the ball was in the air for the last shot, you count the basket. All of this is assuming you want to go back and reverse the call.

I think it's probably the right call, by rule. I'm not sure I'd make it, though, as I'm more likely to have judged it a shot.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 13, 2013, 11:48pm
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Where is the controversy?

In the original play, the player jumps in his backcourt. He attempts a pass to the player in the corner, the ball gets deflected by the defender. There is never player control in the front court, the ball bounces back into the backcourt where the kid makes a tremendous 3 point shot.

Count the basket with great enthusiasm and walk off to court knowing you did a job well done.

If my partner blows his whistle on this for a backcourt, we're going POI, which is the ball in mid air, we're still counting that basket.

Edit: I guess this wasn't the original play, this was the last second shot.

Another Edit: This was the original play that was requested

Last edited by Toren; Tue May 14, 2013 at 12:03am.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 13, 2013, 11:53pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toren View Post
In the original play, the player jumps in his backcourt. He attempts a pass to the player in the corner, the ball gets deflected by the defender. There is never player control in the front court, the ball bounces back into the backcourt where the kid makes a tremendous 3 point shot.

Count the basket with great enthusiasm and walk off to court knowing you did a job well done.

If my partner blows his whistle on this for a backcourt, we're going POI, which is the ball in mid air, we're still counting that basket.
And this is the problem with the team control change and the half-hearted attempts by the rule committee to keep the BC rule the same. They explicitly stated they want everything called the same as before, except for whether free throws are shot. Yet this particular change leads to rulings like Toren notes here, which are incorrect by the intent of the committee, but correct by a literal reading of the rule.

Note: This post assumes the original throw is not ruled a try.

Are you talking about the first video, where the official called a BC on a last second shot, or the video where there was a foul on the last second shot?
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Last edited by Adam; Tue May 14, 2013 at 12:11am. Reason: Clarification received
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 13, 2013, 11:58pm
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Originally Posted by dvboa View Post
Shooting foul, intentional if there's any time on the clock.

Shooter had gathered the ball and started his shooting motion.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 14, 2013, 12:04am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam View Post
And this is the problem with the team control change and the half-hearted attempts by the rule committee to keep the BC rule the same. They explicitly stated they want everything called the same as before, except for whether free throws are shot. Yet this particular change leads to rulings like Toren notes here, which are incorrect by the intent of the committee, but correct by a literal reading of the rule.

Note: This post assumes the original throw is not ruled a try.


Are you talking about the first video, where the official called a BC on a last second shot, or the video where there was a foul on the last second shot?
The last second made basket that was waived off by a backcourt violation
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 14, 2013, 12:05am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam View Post
Shooting foul, intentional if there's any time on the clock.

Shooter had gathered the ball and started his shooting motion.
Why intentional if there's time on the clock?
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 14, 2013, 12:07am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam View Post
Shooting foul, intentional if there's any time on the clock.

Shooter had gathered the ball and started his shooting motion.
He was fouled while coming down on the jump stop. Can you be in a shooting motion when you still landing? I can see going with a shot, however, it it made sense to be shooting at the time...the horn sounded.

However, I can't see going intentional on that in any case. That defender just got caught in the air and was actually trying to avoid hitting him.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 14, 2013, 12:10am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toren View Post
The last second made basket that was waived off by a backcourt violation
In that case, I'm removing my strike line. If that's a pass, that's a BC violation.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 14, 2013, 12:14am
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Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
He was fouled while coming down on the jump stop. Can you be in a shooting motion when you still landing? I can see going with a shot, however, it it made sense to be shooting at the time...the horn sounded.

However, I can't see going intentional on that in any case. That defender just got caught in the air and was actually trying to avoid hitting him.
I don't think I can tell if he's doing his jump stop or his shot (I can see your point), and I agree with not going intentional after watching it again. The shooter was definitely moving into the defender, making it look far worse than it really was.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 14, 2013, 12:18am
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Originally Posted by Adam View Post
In that case, I'm removing my strike line. If that's a pass, that's a BC violation.
Actually, this would be a violation because of 9-9-2, causing "the ball to go from backcourt to the frontcourt and return to the backcourt without the ball touching a player in the frontcourt, such that he/she or a teammate is the first to touch it in the backcourt."

Had an offensive player tipped it in the FC on its way back, it would have been a violation under the old rules, and thus by intent of the committee; it would not, however, be a violation under a literal reading of 9-9-1.
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