T or no T

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I would definitely be keeping an eye of #32 for the rest of the game. She's one of those knuckleheads that we keep talking about here on the Forum.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

That's not the appropriate or professional manner to handle this. Never allow your judgment on decisions to be influenced by anything. That compromises the integrity of the game.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I'm always going to keep a close eye on the knuckleheads in the game. These are the players (usually football players trying to stay in shape during the winter) who are always blurring the "lines in the sand. These are the players who, very often, are involved with intentional "hard" fouls, flagrant fouls, and verbal confrontations, as well as physical fights. It's in the best interest of the officials to keep an eye on these types of players. I'm not saying to "make up" any calls, but if they do something illegal, then, by all means, don't think about passing on it.

Remember this (below) from last year? This kid is the kind of knucklehead that's getting some extra attention from me in my game. I'm not going to make stuff up, but he's not getting a pass on anything illegal either.

[deecee]

It depends. If that's the first time I'm addressing her not a T. In fact I would have gone and picked up the ball and been clear to her that next time I won't be so nice. I also won't make a big deal of the whole thing.

Asking her to pick up the ball and her pushing it to you (I mean I don't see it as a kick) then T'ing her up, eh I don't know. If you felt so disrespected, T it when you first feel that (i.e. when she put the ball down).

Also I don't think she put the ball down with attitude, she just put it down. What do you do if a team calls a TO and the player with the ball does the same?

This seems like looking for trouble if this is the first time you are addressing this player and it's with a T here. I'm in the pool with Adam on how I would look at this play as far as the T.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by deecee

It depends. If that's the first time I'm addressing her not a T. In fact I would have gone and picked up the ball and been clear to her that next time I won't be so nice. I also won't make a big deal of the whole thing.

Asking her to pick up the ball and her pushing it to you (I mean I don't see it as a kick) then T'ing her up, eh I don't know. If you felt so disrespected, T it when you first feel that (i.e. when she put the ball down).

Also I don't think she put the ball down with attitude, she just put it down. What do you do if a team calls a TO and the player with the ball does the same?

This seems like looking for trouble if this is the first time you are addressing this player and it's with a T here. I'm in the pool with Adam on how I would look at this play as far as the T.

Everything in this post is indicative of a young, inexperienced official who gets walked on by players such as this and coaches who will demonstrate displeasure.
Sadly, those who officiate in such a manner send the message to the coaches and players that such behavior is okay and contribute to all officials having to deal with this garbage.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Everything in this post is indicative of a young, inexperienced official who gets walked on by players such as this and coaches who will demonstrate displeasure.
Sadly, those who officiate in such a manner send the message to the coaches and players that such behavior is okay and contribute to all officials having to deal with this garbage.

I love your generalization and judging but I think after 10 years of officiating I don't need you or most other officials to tell me what I can and cannot tolerate. And for your information I take care of business when needed, this didn't seem like much except for potentially being overly officious.

[RefAHallic]

You know what? This girl deserves a technical. Someone said it earlier...her actions were clearly an attempt to show up the officials. Don't know how I didn't arrive at that conclusion initially.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by RefAHallic

You know what? This girl deserves a technical. Someone said it earlier...her actions were clearly an attempt to show up the officials. Don't know how I didn't arrive at that conclusion initially.

I don't see that. She puts the ball down calmly, and I don't see any gestures or her mouthing anything (the later would be tough), and I don't see any over the top behavior which is usually accompanied in instances like this. She comes out of the pack calmly and places the ball on the court. Generally in this instance a player that is upset will put the ball on the court more forcefully and be making some kind of gesture (i.e. shaking the head in disgust, rolling eyes, etc.).

The fact that I don't see any of this is suspect (it's also a small clip of a longer game, so I don't know what has happened up to now, and I'm only judging what I would do based on this clip).

[JRutledge]

Well that is the chance these players or coaches take. When they show displeasure they risk the chance someone will not take it well. So it was better of her to pick the ball up or leave it alone in the first place. It is like flipping a bat or raising your arms after a ball-strike call in a baseball game. Some umpires might not take too kindly to that action.

Peace

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by deecee

I don't see that. She puts the ball down calmly, and I don't see any gestures or her mouthing anything (the later would be tough), and I don't see any over the top behavior which is usually accompanied in instances like this. She comes out of the pack calmly and places the ball on the court. Generally in this instance a player that is upset will put the ball on the court more forcefully and be making some kind of gesture (i.e. shaking the head in disgust, rolling eyes, etc.).

The fact that I don't see any of this is suspect (it's also a small clip of a longer game, so I don't know what has happened up to now, and I'm only judging what I would do based on this clip).

Are you even aware of this rule?

SECTION 3 PLAYER TECHNICAL
A player shall not:
ART. 5 . . . Delay the game by acts such as:
...
b. Failing when in possession, to immediately pass the ball to the nearer
official when a whistle blows

[RefAHallic]

Originally Posted by deecee

Generally in this instance a player that is upset will put the ball on the court more forcefully and be making some kind of gesture (i.e. shaking the head in disgust, rolling eyes, etc.).

This wasn't a gesture indicating she was upset?! The player left the ball in the corner initially. When asked to retrieve it the player walked back to the spot, picked up the ball, put the ball back on the floor, then kicked it to the official. She didn't kick it with the force to bend it like Beckham, but the intent of her actions was still the same: to show her displeasure with the official. No arms waving, jumping up and down or screaming necessary. The official even felt the disrespect. We'll never know, but I bet he didn't say "thank you" when she walked past.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by deecee

I love your generalization and judging but I think after 10 years of officiating I don't need you or most other officials to tell me what I can and cannot tolerate.

Should read: One year of experience ten times. What's the point if one doesn't learn from errors and improve? I really don't care what you put up with when you are on the court because I don't give a darn about you personally, however I'm wise enough to understand that the striped shirt represents all of us and any situation in which a player or coach disrespects an official publically is an offense to all officials, and that I do care about.

Originally Posted by deecee

And for your information I take care of business when needed, this didn't seem like much except for potentially being overly officious.

I don't know whether you do or not because I've never seen you work, but based upon what I've read in your posts on this forum, including this one, you don't deal properly with unsporting behavior. A clear indication of that is your disappointing comment that penalizing this player would be "overly officious." You sound just like a coach.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by deecee

It depends. If that's the first time I'm addressing her not a T. In fact I would have gone and picked up the ball and been clear to her that next time I won't be so nice. I also won't make a big deal of the whole thing.

Asking her to pick up the ball and her pushing it to you (I mean I don't see it as a kick) then T'ing her up, eh I don't know. If you felt so disrespected, T it when you first feel that (i.e. when she put the ball down).

Also I don't think she put the ball down with attitude, she just put it down. What do you do if a team calls a TO and the player with the ball does the same?

This seems like looking for trouble if this is the first time you are addressing this player and it's with a T here. I'm in the pool with Adam on how I would look at this play as far as the T.

You're not quite on my page. While I agree the "kick" was more of a push, I'm not going to say it's looking for trouble to call the T. Call the T, and the next time a ref asks her to get the ball, she'll pick it up and throw it to him nicely.

She absolutely put the ball down out of disgust, there's no question about that. While I can watch this and second guess whether a T should be called, chances are good that on the floor, I would have called the T when she kicked it. If I'd already talked to her, she wouldn't have even had that chance.

[Nevadaref]

And I still disagree with what you are advocating.

In the case of the boys game from last year, some of the individual acts depicted in the video should have been penalized with either intentional or flagrant fouls, but the officials shouldn't have been looking for anything extra to assess to those players. That isn't within our job description. We are there to enforce the rules, not to selectively penalize certain individuals because we don't like something which they did previously.
Your entire method of thinking on this is flawed.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The officials should have been looking for anything extra to assess to those players.

Not looking for anything extra, I'm just giving the knucklehead a little more than 10% of my attention (or what ever the average percentage of attention is per player in my primary coverage area). See my post title for some folksy wisdom.