Pass Off Backboard

[ronny mulkey]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the
ball against: (a) his/her own backboard; (b) the opponent’s backboard; or (c) an
official and catches the ball after each. RULING: Legal in (a); a team’s own backboard
is considered part of that team’s “equipment” and may be used. In (b) and
(c), A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent’s backboard or an official
constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it
strikes the official or the board. (4-4-5; 4-15-1, 2; Fundamental 19)

4-4-5: A ball which touches the front faces or edges of the backboard is
treated the same as touching the floor inbounds.

4-15-1: A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats
(intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once
or several times. It is not a part of a dribble when the ball touches a player’s own
backboard.

Fundamental 19: A ball which touches the front face or edges of the backboard is treated the same
as touching the floor inbounds, except that when the ball touches the thrower’s
backboard, it does not constitute a part of a dribble.

Food for thought: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he throws the
ball against his own backboard ... and catches the ball ... RULING: Legal ... a team’s own backboard
is considered part of that team’s “equipment” and may be used.

My question: Can he legally start a new dribble?

Another question: If the carom goes into A1's backcourt and A1 is the first to touch the ball, has A1 committed a backcourt violation?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by ronny mulkey

Another question: If the carom goes into A1's backcourt and A1 is the first to touch the ball, has A1 committed a backcourt violation?

Good one.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Channeling my inner JR in his memory.

Anybody as tough as Jurassic Referee to tackle this one?

Originally Posted by BillyMac

9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the
ball against: (a) his/her own backboard; (b) the opponent’s backboard; or (c) an
official and catches the ball after each. RULING: Legal in (a); a team’s own backboard
is considered part of that team’s “equipment” and may be used. In (b) and
(c), A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent’s backboard or an official
constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it
strikes the official or the board. (4-4-5; 4-15-1, 2; Fundamental 19)

4-4-5: A ball which touches the front faces or edges of the backboard is
treated the same as touching the floor inbounds.

4-15-1: A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats
(intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once
or several times. It is not a part of a dribble when the ball touches a player’s own
backboard.

Fundamental 19: A ball which touches the front face or edges of the backboard is treated the same
as touching the floor inbounds, except that when the ball touches the thrower’s
backboard, it does not constitute a part of a dribble.

Food for thought: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he throws the
ball against his own backboard ... and catches the ball ... RULING: Legal ... a team’s own backboard
is considered part of that team’s “equipment” and may be used.

My question: Can he legally start a new dribble?

Originally Posted by ronny mulkey

Another question: If the carom goes into A1's backcourt and A1 is the first to touch the ball, has A1 committed a backcourt violation?

[Nevadaref]

Here are my answers which are based upon the definitions of player and team control.
1. As the player relinquished player control by throwing the ball off the backboard in his frontcourt, if he is able to retrieve the ball he has all rights as if he just caught a pass from a teammate.

2. Since only player and not team control ended, it would be a backcourt violation. The thrown ball does not automatically equate to a try for goal.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

2. Since only player and not team control ended, it would be a backcourt violation. The thrown ball does not automatically equate to a try for goal.

Agree.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

1. As the player relinquished player control by throwing the ball off the backboard in his frontcourt, if he is able to retrieve the ball he has all rights as if he just caught a pass from a teammate.

So let me see if I have this straight. The player ends his dribble. Now he throws it off his own backboard, it's a throw, not a try. The ball bounces off his own backboard, and, by definition, this act does not constitute a part of a dribble. The player now catches the ball as it bounces off his own backboard. All legal so far.

Now you're going to allow him to start a new dribble? I need more convincing, and remember, this was a throw, not a try.

NFHS 9-5: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART. 1 . A try for field goal.
ART. 2 . A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 . A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by, another player.

Did the player lose control because of a try? No.
Did the player lose control because of a touch by an opponent? No.
Did the player lose control because of a pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by, another player? No.

So why are you allowing the player to dribble a second time?

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Here are my answers which are based upon the definitions of player and team control.
1. As the player relinquished player control by throwing the ball off the backboard in his frontcourt, if he is able to retrieve the ball he has all rights as if he just caught a pass from a teammate.

2. Since only player and not team control ended, it would be a backcourt violation. The thrown ball does not automatically equate to a try for goal.

Not sure I agree with your #1.

4-4-5 tells us that a ball hitting the backboard is treated the same as a ball hitting the playing court. 4-15 tells us that throwing the ball off the backboard is not part of the dribble, but the dribble ends when the player catches the ball. So if he bats the ball up off the backboard and catches it, his dribble ends at the catch. He can't dribble again.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Not sure I agree with your #1.

4-4-5 tells us that a ball hitting the backboard is treated the same as a ball hitting the playing court. 4-15 tells us that throwing the ball off the backboard is not part of the dribble, but the dribble ends when the player catches the ball. So if he bats the ball up off the backboard and catches it, his dribble ends at the catch. He can't dribble again.

I think I agree with you. The player may have lost player control but not in a way that grants them the right to dribble again.

Even if the player catches the ball after having dribble, then throws it off the board, and then catches it again, the player is legal as that action is not considered a dribble. But it would be a violation to dribble again.

[ronny mulkey]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I think I agree with you. The player may have lost player control but not in a way that grants them the right to dribble again.

Even if the player catches the ball after having dribble, then throws it off the board, and then catches it again, the player is legal as that action is not considered a dribble. But it would be a violation to dribble again.

I'm not disagreeing but I am trying to understand what category this "throw" falls under. It's not a dribble but we aren't going to let the player dribble again? It's not a shot but we will let the player catch the carom and shoot it? If the carom goes into the backcourt, we won't allow him to retrieve it legally? If it's not a pass, shot, dribble or fumble, what rules are we using to make our assumptions on what this player may do legally after retrieving this "throw"?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ronny mulkey

I'm not disagreeing but I am trying to understand what category this "throw" falls under. It's not a dribble but we aren't going to let the player dribble again? It's not a shot but we will let the player catch the carom and shoot it? If the carom goes into the backcourt, we won't allow him to retrieve it legally? If it's not a pass, shot, dribble or fumble, what rules are we using to make our assumptions on what this player may do legally after retrieving this "throw"?

You could consider it a special exception in the rules, only applicable to a specific situation (being allowed to catch the ball) but not stretched beyond. IOW, the player can catch the ball and dunk, as it's legal to throw the ball off of the backboard and retrieve it. He cannot, however, he doesn't get a new dribble or a fresh start in the BC.

Just thinking "out loud."

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by ronny mulkey

I'm not disagreeing but I am trying to understand what category this "throw" falls under. It's not a dribble but we aren't going to let the player dribble again? It's not a shot but we will let the player catch the carom and shoot it? If the carom goes into the backcourt, we won't allow him to retrieve it legally? If it's not a pass, shot, dribble or fumble, what rules are we using to make our assumptions on what this player may do legally after retrieving this "throw"?

Seems like more like a fumble.

However, if I see it in a game, I'm probably going to judge it to be a try unless it is obvious that it is not.