pass off the backboard, into the backcourt

[devdog69]

The other thread reminded me of a play we had in the postseason here. Player A in the frontcourt attempted an alley oop, clearly a pass and not a shot, it hits the backboard and goes into the backcourt where A recovers it. What have you got, and what would you call?

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Must have been a bullet of a pass... no wonder it wasn't a successful alley-oop.

If this pass went into the basket you would count it as a shot and score the requisite number of points based upon the "passer's" position.

If it hits no one and goes into the backcourt... I would still consider this as a shot attempt and that both teams had opportunity to retrieve the ball (loss of team control). Therefore, no backcourt violation.

Just my 'shot' at it.

[silverfox]

If the official judges it to be a pass, then it would be a back court violation if the thrower or a team mate is first
to touch the ball after it enters the back court.
If he deemed if to be a shot, then no violation, no whistle.

I think this is how we explain how a shooter can be the first one to recover his own air-ball. That is , we see it as a shot and not a pass (self pass).

[Hawks Coach]

Dangerous teritory here. I think we always allow the T-Mac play referenced in the related thread because when it goes off your backboard, it is a shot attempt. Otherwise we have a double dribble or a travel as soon a you rebound your own backbaord pass for the alley oop slam. So even if it looked like a pass, it became a shot when it hit backboard or rim.

The airball that is really a shot versus a self pass is a decision that the ref must make. Throwing the ball up and running and catching it is a travel, attempting a shot and airballing it results in no violation if you get your own rebound. But the off the backboard is a shot, so the ref has no decision to make here. I see no backcourt violation.

[silverfox]

By rule (case book 4.15.4 -c ) you can end your dribble,
throw the ball off your backboard and dribble again !
Throwing the ball off your backboard does not constitute a part of a dribble, while throwing the ball off your opponent's backboard or an official constitutes another dribble.

IS THERE A COACH OUT THERE THAT HAS EVER TAUGHT A PLAYER TO
TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THIS RULE IN A GAME SITUATION ???

Would ending your dribble, throwing the ball off an opponent
and dribbling again be legal as well ??

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Otherwise we have a double dribble or a travel as soon a you rebound your own backbaord pass for the alley oop slam. So even if it looked like a pass, it became a shot when it hit backboard or rim.

I'm confused by this statement, Coach. Could you explain what you mean?

[NICK]

1)To me if the alley-oop pass by "A" player was not touched by another "A" player attempting the shot and bounces into the back-court and is recovered by another "A" player, it will be back over half violation as team control has not ended.
2) if the alley-oop pass was touched by player attempting the basket and ball bounces into back court and recovered by another "A" player, then it is not a violation as "A" team control ended when shot was attempted.
3) If ball goes into basket, then you award "A" team the 2 or 3 points it deserves

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

I'm confused by this statement, Coach. Could you explain what you mean?

Let's start with the facts. You can't get a DD or a travel by passing off your own backboard. You can either treat this rule as some sort of exception to other rules, or view it in the context of other rules and consider it a clarification. I choose to do the latter. Let's eliminate this specific clarification in the rules for a second and consider two situations:

1. I dribble, I pick up the ball, I toss it off the backboard, I run and retrieve it - if this is not a try on goal, it is a self pass and therefore a travel or a double dribble (depending on how you intepret what has occurred).
2. I dribble, I pick up the ball, I throw it off the backboard, and it bounds back to me - if this is not a try on goal, it is a double dribble.

Now clearly I know that, by the rule cited above, you can't get a travel or a double dribble by "passing" off your own backboard. I have never seen it explicitly stated, but I believe that this ruling exists because if it is off your own backboard, it is a try on goal by rule (even if it all participants agree the ball was not intended to go in the goal when released). This ruling saves you from the messy interpretations of "was he really trying to score or just passing to himself?"

If you throw the ball up and miss everything, judgement must now come into play regarding whether or not this was a try. Hit some rim or backboard, you have a try, IMO.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
You can't get a DD or a travel by passing off your own backboard.

That's all I needed to know. I thought that's what you meant but the other poster didn't seem to. Then, when I re-read it, it wasn't as clear. That's all.

[jking_94577]

I have seen some hot dogging players do this and I have always wondered if this is a travel. They throw up the ball to themselves and jump in one motion. They then recatch the ball and slam it home all before they return to the ground. I don't think this is a travel but many people have disagreed with me.

[Hawks Coach]

Toss it into the ari to run under and dunk it - travel (as long as you take the two steps ).

Toss it off the board and run under and dunk it - two points and you have a Sportscenter highlight dunk.

[jking_94577]

No. The player does not run under it. They throw up the ball and jump at the same time. No backboard involved here.

[Hawks Coach]

In the case you describe where they toss then jump (no movement of feet between two acts), forget the backboard. You can stand and toss the ball to yourself with no violation, and you can toss it, jump, catch, shoot and land with no violation.

Now when you put the "off the backboard" into the equation, you are even allowed to run in between the toss and the jump because your toss becomes a shot.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach

Now when you put the "off the backboard" into the equation, you are even allowed to run in between the toss and the jump because your toss becomes a shot.

Coach,
I believe the case you make here is compelling and I applaud your erudite approach to the rules, but just know that what you claim is not stated in black and white in the rulesbook.
Earlier you wrote:

Originally posted by Hawks Coach

Let's start with the facts. You can't get a DD or a travel by passing off your own backboard. You can either treat this rule as some sort of exception to other rules, or view it in the context of other rules and consider it a clarification. I choose to do the latter.

Well, I choose the former. The reason that I do so is twofold. First the word "except" is used in rule 4-4-5 (see my post below) and secondly, please recall the play that happened in the NCAA tournament this year in which a ball was tipped during a scramble and hit the rim, but was ruled to not be a try, therefore causing a shot clock violation. My logic is that if a ball which hits the rim can be ruled to not be a shot, then certainly the same can be said for a ball which only hits the backboard.
Therefore, I must disagree with you that the toss becomes a shot simply because it hit the backboard. I'm calling it an exception to the double dribble violation (not sure why it would be an exception to the traveling rule, so hopefully you could help me with that), but I am not calling it a shot until the rulesbook or the casebook tells me flat out that it is a shot. My two cents.

[Edited by Nevadaref on Apr 17th, 2003 at 04:02 AM]

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by devdog69
The other thread reminded me of a play we had in the postseason here. Player A in the frontcourt attempted an alley oop, clearly a pass and not a shot, it hits the backboard and goes into the backcourt where A recovers it. What have you got, and what would you call?

It is really quite clear from the wording of the rules that this is a backcourt violation.
4-13 Court Areas
Art. 1 ...The frontcourt of a team consists of that part of the court between its end line and the nearer edge of the division line, including its basket and the inbounds part of the backboard.
4-4 Ball Location, at Disposal
Art. 5 ...A ball which touches the front faces or edges of the backboard is treated the same as touching the floor inbounds, except that when the ball touches the thrower's backboard it does not constitute part of a dribble.

Since we do not have a rule that states that once the ball hits the board it equates to a shot, this play consists of nothing more than Team A being in control, the ball hitting the frontcourt (since the bounce off the backboard is to be treated the same as touching the floor inbounds and the backboard is in the frontcourt), and then the ball going into the backcourt where Team A is the first to touch it after being the last to touch it before it went there.
This is definitely a backcourt violation.