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Old Sat Apr 17, 2004, 12:23am
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This is my first time in the forum. I tried to use the search function to see if this had been asked before but it didn't work. So I apologize if this has already been covered.

My question is whether the NBA disallowing Bob Sura's triple-double is consistent with players like T-Mac being allowed to throw the ball off the backboard and catch and dunk it. I am just interested in the NBA rules about this.

Sura missed a shot on purpose in order to get his tenth rebound. This was held to not be a rebound because it was not a field goal attempt because by Rule 4, Section XI "a field goal attempt is a player's attempt to shoot the ball into his basket for a field goal." Here there was no attempt to shoot the ball "into" the basket.

If this was not a field goal attempt, should it have been called a travel when Sura caught the ball after it hit the rim? Or is it more like when you throw the ball off of another player and then retrieve it, which is not a travel (after all, I assume the shot clock would reset in this situation, so it would be weird if that could happen in the middle of a travel).

Even supposing that would not count as a travel, what about if you throw it off the backboard and then catch it (that is, is hitting the backboard different than hitting the rim even if neither are field goal attempts?). It would not be a field goal attempt, so would it be a travel or just nothing (like throwing it off another player)?

What if you stand flat footed, throw the ball off the backboard, jump and dunk it before you touch the ground? I assume this wouldn't be a travel either way because your feet never landed after you got the ball back. Or what if you threw the ball off the backboard, took three steps, and jumped and dunked it before your feet hit the ground? Is this a travel?

Also, I know the definition of a free throw is different than the definition of a field goal, but does it count as a rebound when you grab an intentionally missed free throw (at the end of the game when a team is down by 2 or 3)?

If possible, could you point me to the specific rules that answer these questions?
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Old Sat Apr 17, 2004, 11:18am
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I believe the NBA makes their rules available on their web pages and I'm certain you can buy them at B/N, Borders or on Amazon.

Take what follows with a grain of salt - I didn't see the play & I only read 1 article on the subsequent bruh-ha-ha. What we're talking about here, IMO, is record keeping vs rules. Apparently this triple/double thing is a big deal & the powers that be at the NBA office decided not to somehow taint it. Equally apparent to me that the refs working that game decided what they saw was legal, or they would have blown the whistle. To me it amounts to little more than a blurb in the morning papers saying an error in last night's game has be changed to a hit.

There is one person here who spends time working at NCAA tables, maybe he can help you with how these stats are recorded.
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Old Sat Apr 17, 2004, 11:59am
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unstandable,
I think the best way to look at this is also the simplest. I am assuming that T-Mac does not get a rebound when he does the "dunk off of the glass," so it would make sense that Sura would be treated the same. In this light, the NBA's decision was for the sake of consistency; otherwise they need to give T-Mac a rebound for his flashy dunk.
That said, Dan's point about this being a stat issue rather than a "rules" issue is right on. We (officials)don't determine who gets an assist, rebound, steal, turnover, etc. The only reason this is even news is because of the triple double. It would be more like Major League Baseball coming out the next day and saying A-Rod did not in fact hit for the cycle because his double was in fact a single with a fielder's choice to 2nd.
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Old Sat Apr 17, 2004, 02:38pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by unstandable
If this was not a field goal attempt, should it have been called a travel when Sura caught the ball after it hit the rim?

No. It is legal to catch a ball that has been thrown off your own backboard or basket, even if it's not a shot attempt.

Quote:
Or is it more like when you throw the ball off of another player and then retrieve it, which is not a travel (after all, I assume the shot clock would reset in this situation, so it would be weird if that could happen in the middle of a travel).

That situation would not be a travel, b/c the ball was touched by another player before being recovered by the first player. There would not be a reset of the 24-second clock in that situation.

Quote:
what about if you throw it off the backboard and then catch it

Same as above. Legal.

Quote:
What if you stand flat footed, throw the ball off the backboard, jump and dunk it before you touch the ground? I assume this wouldn't be a travel either way because your feet never landed after you got the ball back.

Correct. No travel. It wouldn't be a travel even if you jumped, threw it off the backboard, then landed.

Quote:
Or what if you threw the ball off the backboard, took three steps, and jumped and dunked it before your feet hit the ground? Is this a travel?

Legal. This is the T-Mac move that you mentioned. Ever see a whistle on it? Same reason; once it hits the backboard or basket, it's anybody's ball.

Quote:
does it count as a rebound when you grab an intentionally missed free throw?
I'm not quite as sure about this one, but I believe that it is a legal rebound.

Quote:
If possible, could you point me to the specific rules that answer these questions?
http://www.nba.com Sorry, but I don't have my books handy at the moment.
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Old Tue Apr 20, 2004, 04:48pm
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I just read this on ESPN.com:

"Did you know that, according to the NBA rule book, Chris Webber's pass to himself off the board for a dunk late in Sunday's Game 1 victory over the Mavericks should have been waved off as a traveling violation?"

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playof...arc&id=1786241

So are you guys sure that he's wrong? At this point I don't know what to think.
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Old Tue Apr 20, 2004, 05:05pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by unstandable
So are you guys sure that he's wrong? At this point I don't know what to think.
I will take a guess. We are officials, we study the rules. We might not do the NBA, but know the differences. Not that there are very many to begin with. This is not a violation at any level. You can bounce the ball of your own basket and it is not a travel. It would only be a violation if they did so off their opponents basket.

When you start listening to media people for rules consideration, you are really in trouble.

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Old Tue Apr 20, 2004, 05:48pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by unstandable
I just read this on ESPN.com:

"Did you know that, according to the NBA rule book, Chris Webber's pass to himself off the board for a dunk late in Sunday's Game 1 victory over the Mavericks should have been waved off as a traveling violation?"

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playof...arc&id=1786241

So are you guys sure that he's wrong? At this point I don't know what to think.
In the NBA, an recovering an airball shot IS a travelling violation, where it's not at other levels. My guess is that this ESPN person didn't make the distinction. I think the easiest way to stop this sort of folly, would be to require announcers to quote passages. But I suppose that's more accountability than network folks are comfortable with.
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Old Tue Apr 20, 2004, 06:59pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by unstandable
but does it count as a rebound when you grab an intentionally missed free throw (at the end of the game when a team is down by 2 or 3)?

I don't know specifically for NBA, but my guess is that it doesn't because a FT is not an FGA.

The concept I've always known is that the total number of missed FGA's needs to equal the total number of rebounds (team, individual, dead-ball, etc.)

If unintentional-miss FT rebounds are counted in rebounds, though, then intentional-miss FT rebounds would have to be counted as well.
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Old Tue Apr 20, 2004, 07:01pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker

In the NBA, an recovering an airball shot IS a travelling violation, where it's not at other levels.

Just nit-picking here, but recovering your OWN shot airball is a travelling violation - a teammate or opponent catching your airball is not a violation.
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Old Tue Apr 20, 2004, 11:08pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by unstandable
I just read this on ESPN.com:

"Did you know that, according to the NBA rule book, Chris Webber's pass to himself off the board for a dunk late in Sunday's Game 1 victory over the Mavericks should have been waved off as a traveling violation?"

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playof...arc&id=1786241

So are you guys sure that he's wrong? At this point I don't know what to think.
Short answer:

Chances are that the writer for ESPN has NEVER seen a rule book, much less read one.

Did the officials call a travel? No.

The writer is wrong.
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 21, 2004, 11:29am
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airball catch

Mark

Rainmaker is correct, it is not a traveling violation if you catch your own airball, due to the fact that there is no longer team control on an FG attempt (NFHS Casebook 4.43.2)
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Old Wed Apr 21, 2004, 11:48am
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Re: airball catch

Quote:
Originally posted by icallfouls
Mark

Rainmaker is correct, it is not a traveling violation if you catch your own airball, due to the fact that there is no longer team control on an FG attempt (NFHS Casebook 4.43.2)
Check the topic of the thread...NBA...traveling. Otherwise, I agree.

Mark was just saying that the NBA is only traveling when you catch your own airball and not when someone else catches the airball.
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Old Wed Apr 21, 2004, 11:56am
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Unhappy Thanks Cam

I agree Cam. I meant to point out that for those who are interested in the NFHS/NCAA ruling of similar plays.

I should start proof-reading my posts.
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Old Wed Apr 21, 2004, 03:19pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by unstandable
does it count as a rebound when you grab an intentionally missed free throw (at the end of the game when a team is down by 2 or 3)?

If possible, could you point me to the specific rules that answer these questions?
Rule 10-1a. "After the ball is placed at the disposal of a free throw shooter, his attempt shall be within 10 seconds in such a way that the ball enters the basket or touches the ring before it is touched by a player."

This is to prevent a player from intentionally missing a free throw so that he can send the ball to himself or to a teammate. So if the player intentionally misses, but the ball hits the rim, any player grabbing the ball after the shot would get a rebound. But if the ball does not touch the rim, the thrower commits a violation.
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