Ohio St vs. Iowa St video request.

[APG]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

And that is ONLY in the NBA. That does not apply at any other level. They have to actually be in the shooting motion at the time of the foul to be in the act of shooting.

And then many would argue that what happened between the gather and the ball being released is the habitual motion that precedes the shot. You have your interpretation on these type of plays, and other people have theirs. To the play in question, I'd easily have in the act of shooting.

[NewYorker]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Moving a foot back does not change the status of you being in LGP ever. Sorry, but again you either are not aware of the NCAA/NF Rules or you have never called a game in your life. This is pretty basic stuff you are arguing. That is why you have no one agreeing with you. And there is still a case to be made that this was block, but not for the reasons you are stating.

Peace

No kidding Sherlock, indeed I have never called a game in my life. Honestly, I used to play, saw the game and was perplexed as to the call. I came across the site accidentally.

Yall know your stuff. Wish the refs that called my games were as good as you guys.

Still - I think the rules need to be changed. There's no way that it helps the game when a guy can undercut him like that. It's not safe, nor is it in the spirit of the game in my opinion. You should not be able to slide under a player as he is jumping off the ground. BUt that is my opinion and certainly not the rule as you have so clearly indicated.

Congrats!

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by NewYorker

No kidding Sherlock, indeed I have never called a game in my life. Honestly, I used to play, saw the game and was perplexed as to the call. I came across the site accidentally.

Well you do realize that playing the game means nothing when it comes to rules knowledge. I teach a class for newer officials in my area and the most common statement that someone makes when they come into officiating (and many played), they did not realize how little of the rules they knew before they officiated.

Originally Posted by NewYorker

Yall know your stuff. Wish the refs that called my games were as good as you guys.

A lot of guys off this board know their stuff as well. We are not special, we are just a handful that talk about it here. Most officials never come to this place or anything like it.

Originally Posted by NewYorker

Still - I think the rules need to be changed. There's no way that it helps the game when a guy can undercut him like that. It's not safe, nor is it in the spirit of the game in my opinion. You should not be able to slide under a player as he is jumping off the ground. BUt that is my opinion and certainly not the rule as you have so clearly indicated.

Congrats!

Well that is wonderful that you think the rules need to be changed, but it is usually the public or coaches and players that often do not know the rules. And not sure how the play in question had someone undercut. The rules are to be balanced and the RA was to help eliminate contact near or under the basket. But just like anything the offense has options. This player could have taken a jumper or done something else with the ball. So how far do you take the rule. And in my entire career this rule has not change other than the RA which only applies to the NCAA and NBA levels. If you do not want contact in the game, go play chess. Otherwise it is your responsibility as an offensive player to add other weapons to your game. They are not going to take away defensive play no matter what you or I think honestly.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by NewYorker

No kidding Sherlock, indeed I have never called a game in my life. Honestly, I used to play, saw the game and was perplexed as to the call. I came across the site accidentally.

Great. It would have perhaps been beneficial to have indicated you were not a ref. It sounded a lot like you were a newer official trying to say they got it wrong and the reasons why rather than someone just trying to learn the rules.

Originally Posted by NewYorker

Still - I think the rules need to be changed. There's no way that it helps the game when a guy can undercut him like that. It's not safe, nor is it in the spirit of the game in my opinion. You should not be able to slide under a player as he is jumping off the ground. BUt that is my opinion and certainly not the rule as you have so clearly indicated.

A lot of people make that same argument but it really doesn't hold water. The shooter could see him coming a long time before if they get their head up and look around. It isn't like he appeared out of thin air.

You could reverse the argument and say it isn't fair for a shooter to jump just as a defender is trying to get position!?!?

It is simply a matter of balance between the two sides. There has to be a line somewhere and this is where it is set. Move it either way and you still get a calls right on the edge.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by NewYorker

Yall know your stuff. Wish the refs that called my games were as good as you guys.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

A lot of guys off this board know their stuff as well. We are not special, we are just a handful that talk about it here.

Hey? Speak for yourself. I will accept NewYorker's compliment. Thank you NewYorker. ("Yall" from a New Yorker? Forgedaboudit.)

I am special. Just ask my mother, and my three kids.

[David B]

Originally Posted by OKREF

If you watch the play, the shooter actually looks to get bumped into CrFt by another Ohio State player, getting fouled before the call.

That was what I saw also, but did not hear one person even mention that on the tube. It actually looks like the other player pushes him into Craft -

I guess they can't argue the foul call because its judgement, but as far as a foot being on the floor or not - another story.

thanks
David

[NewYorker]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Well you do realize that playing the game means nothing when it comes to rules knowledge. I teach a class for newer officials in my area and the most common statement that someone makes when they come into officiating (and many played), they did not realize how little of the rules they knew before they officiated.

I never claimed to have more knowledge, I am only trying to understand why that call was a charge. I did not realize this board was for officials, I thought it was for complaining about officiating or controversial calls and a place for debating it. Maybe a sticky or something here would help keep non-officials like myself out.

Well that is wonderful that you think the rules need to be changed, but it is usually the public or coaches and players that often do not know the rules. And not sure how the play in question had someone undercut. The rules are to be balanced and the RA was to help eliminate contact near or under the basket. But just like anything the offense has options. This player could have taken a jumper or done something else with the ball. So how far do you take the rule. And in my entire career this rule has not change other than the RA which only applies to the NCAA and NBA levels. If you do not want contact in the game, go play chess. Otherwise it is your responsibility as an offensive player to add other weapons to your game. They are not going to take away defensive play no matter what you or I think honestly.

Peace

I have no problem with contact. I do have problem with rewarding a defensive player for running up right under an offensive players path just as he is jumping. There was no way he could avoid the contact. Take jumpers? IS that what you want the game to be? I think that should be a blocking foul - forget about the rules for a second. That's the whole point of the restricted area - to prevent guys from running into the path of a guy that close to the basket when the offensive player is going to be committed to being airborne. I think thats the NBA does call it differently (I know you may debate this).

I think they will change it. You don't want guys colliding when one is jumping high into the air. Contact is one thing, but an offensive player is very vulnerable and I have seen some unpleasant injuries from a guy trying to take charges near the basket.

[NewYorker]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Great. It would have perhaps been beneficial to have indicated you were not a ref. It sounded a lot like you were a newer official trying to say they got it wrong and the reasons why rather than someone just trying to learn the rules.



A lot of people make that same argument but it really doesn't hold water. The shooter could see him coming a long time before if they get their head up and look around. It isn't like he appeared out of thin air.

You could reverse the argument and say it isn't fair for a shooter to jump just as a defender is trying to get position!?!?

It is simply a matter of balance between the two sides. There has to be a line somewhere and this is where it is set. Move it either way and you still get a calls right on the edge.

As I said, I am new here - there are no faq or sticky explaining this place is for officials only. So I am not sure how I am suppose to know that. I googled "iowa st ohio charge" and found this thread.

There is no way the offensive player can anticipate where a defender will go. He had a clear path to the basket when he began his shooting motion. Once you pick up your dribble and start gathering yourself or take a step you have incredible momentum now. You can't stop - you are committed. The defender was not there at that point. He moved in afterwards. So the offensive player had a path until then, he can't predict where the defense is going to go. But the defensive player knows where the offensive player is going. So you reward the defense for basically running in there and undercutting. I guarantee you if he came in from the side they would have called it a blocking foul. In fact I saw that in another game where it looked far more like a charge than this call but was called a blocking foul - but he was coming in from the side and not from the front. Fine, that's the rules, but in that situation you will often see the offensive player being airborne and the defender taking that charge or committing a blocking foul.

You can argue how you want to call it. But I'd like to see less defenders do that. Instead, play defense. I hate guys just diving in there trying to get a cheap charge call like that. My three cents.

[APG]

Originally Posted by NewYorker

I have no problem with contact. I do have problem with rewarding a defensive player for running up right under an offensive players path just as he is jumping. There was no way he could avoid the contact. Take jumpers? IS that what you want the game to be? I think that should be a blocking foul - forget about the rules for a second. That's the whole point of the restricted area - to prevent guys from running into the path of a guy that close to the basket when the offensive player is going to be committed to being airborne. I think thats the NBA does call it differently (I know you may debate this).

I think they will change it. You don't want guys colliding when one is jumping high into the air. Contact is one thing, but an offensive player is very vulnerable and I have seen some unpleasant injuries from a guy trying to take charges near the basket.

First off, there's no problem with you posting here even if you don't officiate. It's just the presumption seeing as...well this is a board for sports officials and related topics. Keep respectful and you'll be just fine.

The NBA does call this different because the rule is different.

Under NFHS (high school) and NCAA rules, a defender is late if he gets his position after the defender is airborne. In the NBA, a defender is late if he gets his position after the offensive player has started his upward motion with the ball. Even with the defender being required to be there half a beat earlier, fans and commentators still scream about "defenders running under players" or changing to rule to whatever even on bang bang players that are correctly called charges. And the same arguments that you're saying right here are still brought up by commentators in NBA games.

Originally Posted by NewYorker

I never claimed to have more knowledge, I am only trying to understand why that call was a charge. I did not realize this board was for officials, I thought it was for complaining about officiating or controversial calls and a place for debating it. Maybe a sticky or something here would help keep non-officials like myself out.

When you said "the rules say this...." even though the rules do not read that way, you were kinda claiming to have more knowledge.

However, I do see your point. The officials who responded to you actually agreed with you that it is a block....but they kept pointing out that the reasons you were giving were not valid ones (time/distance not given, moving the foot, being "set", etc.). For these guys, the process is as important as the final call.

It would have helped you if JRut had posted the rule covering the situation that we were talking about, which confused both you and me. He posted the rule about off-ball defenders getting LGP, which has little to do with the Craft play.

I have heard of boards where all they do is complain about officiating (and pretty much everything else) -- they are called fan forums.

I hope you stay here and get to learn!

[NewYorker]

Originally Posted by seanwestref

When you said "the rules say this...." even though the rules do not read that way, you were kinda claiming to have more knowledge.

However, I do see your point. The officials who responded to you actually agreed with you that it is a block....but they kept pointing out that the reasons you were giving were not valid ones (time/distance not given, moving the foot, being "set", etc.). For these guys, the process is as important as the final call.

It would have helped you if JRut had posted the rule covering the situation that we were talking about, which confused both you and me. He posted the rule about off-ball defenders getting LGP, which has little to do with the Craft play.

I have heard of boards where all they do is complain about officiating (and pretty much everything else) -- they are called fan forums.

I hope you stay here and get to learn!

Yeah well I guess I am more of a fan than anything truth be told

I'm glad to better understand the rule. My intent wasn't to act more knowledgable but rather get people to explain why I it didn't make sense to me.

It's still weird. As a player I would have never thought this. There are many times that I have picked up my dribble in full stride towards the basket and someone has step in front. In one particular instance, I was driving hard to the basket baseline and was going in for a dunk. A shorter defender slide in (there was no restricted area back then but if there was, they'd definitely have been out of it). If I recall correctly, they where square with me, had their feet on the ground, and there before I was airborne. I couldn't avoid the collision. By the time I processed mentally that there was someone in front of me, I was already in the act of exploding up off one leg and my momentum just took me into them. I tried to avoid it but all i could do was turn my side into them. He took the worst of it but i definitely remember landing hard on my back. It was called a blocking foul. But by these rules, it should have been a charge. And it's just hard to get my head wrapped that.

[NewYorker]

Originally Posted by APG

First off, there's no problem with you posting here even if you don't officiate. It's just the presumption seeing as...well this is a board for sports officials and related topics. Keep respectful and you'll be just fine.

The NBA does call this different because the rule is different.

Under NFHS (high school) and NCAA rules, a defender is late if he gets his position after the defender is airborne. In the NBA, a defender is late if he gets his position after the offensive player has started his upward motion with the ball. Even with the defender being required to be there half a beat earlier, fans and commentators still scream about "defenders running under players" or changing to rule to whatever even on bang bang players that are correctly called charges. And the same arguments that you're saying right here are still brought up by commentators in NBA games.

Thanks for the clarification.

[jTheUmp]

Originally Posted by NewYorker

It's still weird. As a player I would have never thought this. There are many times that I have picked up my dribble in full stride towards the basket and someone has step in front. In one particular instance, I was driving hard to the basket baseline and was going in for a dunk. A shorter defender slide in (there was no restricted area back then but if there was, they'd definitely have been out of it). If I recall correctly, they where square with me, had their feet on the ground, and there before I was airborne. I couldn't avoid the collision. By the time I processed mentally that there was someone in front of me, I was already in the act of exploding up off one leg and my momentum just took me into them. I tried to avoid it but all i could do was turn my side into them. He took the worst of it but i definitely remember landing hard on my back. It was called a blocking foul. But by these rules, it should have been a charge. And it's just hard to get my head wrapped that.

Yeah, that could've been a charge on your part. It could've also been a blocking foul (if the defender was moving forward at the time of the contact, or if one of his feet wasn't on the floor before you went airborne).

As a player, you're going to see things differently than the officials see them.

That's why the officials get paid the mediocre bucks.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

Yeah, that could've been a charge on your part. It could've also been a blocking foul (if the defender was moving forward at the time of the contact, or if one of his feet wasn't on the floor before you went airborne).

As a player, you're going to see things differently than the officials see them.

That's why the officials get paid the mediocre bucks.

Or, the official could have kicked it. As we've seen from the plays Adams put out earlier this year, it does happen.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by NewYorker

I never claimed to have more knowledge, I am only trying to understand why that call was a charge. I did not realize this board was for officials, I thought it was for complaining about officiating or controversial calls and a place for debating it. Maybe a sticky or something here would help keep non-officials like myself out.

Actually you did claim to have knowledge of the subject. Maybe not more knowledge as I would have no other way to make that determination other than what you are stating on this topic.

And yes this a board of sports officials and primarily those that work the sport in which you posted this topic.

And we have had many non-officials over the years, nothing wrong with posting. But you are not debating these issues with people that do not have access to the actual books these games are governed by.

Originally Posted by NewYorker

I have no problem with contact. I do have problem with rewarding a defensive player for running up right under an offensive players path just as he is jumping. There was no way he could avoid the contact. Take jumpers? IS that what you want the game to be? I think that should be a blocking foul - forget about the rules for a second. That's the whole point of the restricted area - to prevent guys from running into the path of a guy that close to the basket when the offensive player is going to be committed to being airborne. I think thats the NBA does call it differently (I know you may debate this).

I want the game to reward good defense. I want the game to reward a player that can do different things. I think there should be a balance between the two. And yes the RA is to prevent guys from constantly running into people under the basket, but it also says to the offense you have only a small area to get that consideration. Otherwise you need to not run willy-nilly into anyone just because they are in your way, just like other parts of the court. And that is great that the NBA calls it differently, but that does not necessarily influence what other levels do. The NBA has a different athlete that has been playing the game for a longer time and the public that is watching is paying more money. High School or NCAA are dealing with players that may never play above their level. Who cares about all of that, that is the case in every single sport where the pros have a different rules than the lower amateur levels.

Originally Posted by NewYorker

I think they will change it. You don't want guys colliding when one is jumping high into the air. Contact is one thing, but an offensive player is very vulnerable and I have seen some unpleasant injuries from a guy trying to take charges near the basket.

If they were going to change this, they would have done so a long time ago. These plays happen all the time and nothing has change for years. It has been the same basic rule since I started almost 20 years ago. The only thing that changed was the NCAA rule on the RA. They are not going to take away defense or the ability to play it if an offensive player cannot make another type of play. Actually you are the only person I have ever heard complain about this part of the game and one of the reasons nothing in this area will change.

Peace