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Old Sun Oct 19, 2003, 06:20pm
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Question

In Saturday's Iowa v Ohio State game, Iowa set up for a field goal and then executed a successful fake when the holder flipped the ball back to the kicker who then ran around end for the TD.
My question: The holder was still down on one knee when he flipped the ball to the kicker. In NFHS the ball would have been blown dead at the point where the holder was. Is this situation legal in NCAA?
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Old Sun Oct 19, 2003, 06:44pm
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Yes. And my wife was clearly not amused when I mentioned this at length at the sports bar where we had dinner last night.

How about the 2 holds that were left uncalled

Rich
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Old Sun Oct 19, 2003, 08:53pm
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Rich is right about the holds. Wow, they were blatant and none of the 7 guys flagged either one. We do a better job with our 4 and 5-man crews.
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Old Mon Oct 20, 2003, 01:48am
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I was thinking about how we'd cover that in 5 man, actually. If the play was run to the LJ side, we'd have a hard time covering -- either the LJ would have to step up quickly and officiate or likely the R would have to get it from behind. Or maybe the U, although I doubt it.

With 7? I would think there'd be better coverage.

Great call by the coaching staff, though.
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Old Mon Oct 20, 2003, 01:54am
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Lightbulb Legal.

Quote:
Originally posted by kentref
In NFHS the ball would have been blown dead at the point where the holder was. Is this situation legal in NCAA?
Legal in NCAA. Just one of many rules differences.

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Old Mon Oct 20, 2003, 07:12am
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We've had that problem, covering the fake extra point with a 5-man crew. What happens is our white hat follows the ball, naturally, and the BJ or LJ, depending on the side it is run to, runs his butt off to get to the sideline/goal line from behind he upright. Our biggest problem is getting to the goal line to see if the runner breaks the plane. We had that this year on a play where this team lined up their O-line about 10 yds to the left of the snapper with a back and the snapper flips the ball to the back. Other times the O-line shifts back to a normal position and the ball is kicked. That team scored a lot of touchdowns in this game, so on subsequent trys, we left the LJ on the line and the BJ and R watched the uprights, the LJ watched for roughing the snapper/holder. It worked out ok.

The fake FG and run by a back is like trying to cover a QB who fakes pass or is flushed out and runs to the sideline. The LJ or HL have already gone downfield and the R is trailing the runner. Those are the times when the R may end up having to mark the spot on the sideline where the runner goes out. It's a worse-case scenario for sideline coverage. If the LJ or BJ sees that the QB has crossed the neutral zone, they can sprint back but usually there is a crowd of blockers and defenders in the way.
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Old Mon Oct 20, 2003, 11:40am
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This is one of the mechanics I believe needs to be changed. On our HS crew(5), we send the back judge and the umpire back on all kicks, not one of the linesmen. Especially on XP's, why not move the umpire back another 5 yards and cover everything he already does. That way, if there's a problem, we still have the entire goal line covered.

Am I the only one this makes sense to?
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Old Mon Oct 20, 2003, 12:23pm
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Viking32

We do the same thing here in Northern Virginia. U is back on FGs also.
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Old Mon Oct 20, 2003, 01:27pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Forksref
Rich is right about the holds. Wow, they were blatant and none of the 7 guys flagged either one. We do a better job with our 4 and 5-man crews.
How about the week before, OSU and Wisconsin when the Ohio State linebacker choked the Wisconsin QB and no penalty was called?
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Old Mon Oct 20, 2003, 01:40pm
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How about the week before, OSU and Wisconsin when the Ohio State linebacker choked the Wisconsin QB and no penalty was called? [/B][/QUOTE]

That's amazing too. Are the Big Ten officials swallowing their whistles?
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Old Mon Oct 20, 2003, 02:41pm
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Thumbs down I am not buying that at all.

Quote:
Originally posted by Forksref

That's amazing too. Are the Big Ten officials swallowing their whistles?
No it is not. The choking incident happen in a pile. Things happen in a pile. It is not unusual for things to go on in a pile and the officials not see it. It was like that when I played football, it is like that now that I officiate it.

You cannot honestly tell me or any official here that you did not have a player come to you and say, "Number #23 cursed at me," or "Number 54 pushed me." It happens all the time and officials do not see it. Or at the very least, there is a claim of something happening that is illegal. It is always easy to say "what should have happen" when it is not your game.

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Old Mon Oct 20, 2003, 03:47pm
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Re: I am not buying that at all.

Quote:
Originally posted by JRutledge
Quote:
Originally posted by Forksref

That's amazing too. Are the Big Ten officials swallowing their whistles?
No it is not. The choking incident happen in a pile. Things happen in a pile. It is not unusual for things to go on in a pile and the officials not see it. It was like that when I played football, it is like that now that I officiate it.



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Rut,

Don't know if you saw the picture I saw but it looks pretty blatant. Yeah, it was a pile and you see OSU player #47 lying on the ground next to a Wisconsin helmet. The OSU linebacker is on his knees with his right arm exerting what looks to be intentional pressure on the player in the helmet. And, being able to get a hand under the helmet pass the pads and on the throat is not an easy task. If the camera was able to get such a good picture seems like one of the seven officials should have seen something. And, isn't it the referee's job to protect the QB? Plus, there does not appear to be an official within two yards of this pile.

Furthermore, the Wisconsin QB could not raise his voice the remainder of the game or talk normally until Monday. Evidence this was more than the normal stuff that happens in a pile.

If the Big Ten can't handle this situation with seven officials how are we expected to handle such a situation with four or five officials?

[Edited by Ed Hickland on Oct 20th, 2003 at 03:54 PM]
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Old Mon Oct 20, 2003, 06:49pm
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Re: I am not buying that at all.

[/B][/QUOTE]
"The choking incident happen in a pile. Things happen in a pile. It is not unusual for things to go on in a pile and the officials not see it. It was like that when I played football, it is like that now that I officiate it." --RUT[/B][/QUOTE]

I agree with Ed.

This was not the typical "in the pile, stuff happens" behavior. Football is a violent game, but it does not give one the freedom to commit such a violent act.

Rut, surely you are not suggesting that intentionally choking a player is one of those things that just "happens" in a pile, are you? A pile does not provide someone with a license to assault a person.

This action emphasizes the importance of good dead ball officiating to another level. Keep that head on a swivel and eyes open AFTER THE WHISTLE!
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Old Mon Oct 20, 2003, 09:52pm
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Iowa using an experimantal mechanic....

This year in Iowa we are experimenting with a new mechanic for the positioning of officials on all field goal attempts and PATs.

In the past the R would face the holder and the LJ would always go under the upright.

This year the R still faces the holder but the wing official who is also on this side now goes under the upright with the BJ. This protects the R from a fake that in years past may go to the vacated side of the LJ. Now the R can take the side the wing has vacated and the opposite wing is already there.

We have found this very helpful and from the sounds of things it will be instuted nationally very soon if not next year.
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Old Mon Oct 20, 2003, 10:03pm
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Short FG/PAT mechanic

We put the U back with the BJ when the ball is snapped inside the 15. 15 and out, the LJ goes back.
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