From beyond the arc

[Pantherdreams]

I'm a FIBA guy so there is obviously some difference since shot clock is the norm. Are there problems with the shot clock you bet but its just part of what you deal with. The better the game the less problems. Dealing with this since it is a rule has more of a perception of being more of game management rather then an inconvenience.

I also think personally (as I've shared here before) that the shot clock is better for promotion/development of more basketball players. If you are a kid is it more likely you will play/want to get better/ shoot more on your own if your teams puts up 60-80 shots pergame and everyone is expected to be able to take and make one. Or if your team puts up 30-50 shots and there are only specific conditions in which someone other than 2-3 three players in specific spots/roles will shoot. Are games more fun when they are player controlled or coach controlled? Shot clock puts more possesions and control in players hands and decision making ability.

That is my mini soap box.

In terms of how often it happens. The all out stall does not happen all that often in Maine which is on our border but the game does change in the 4th guarter once someone has a lead almost everytime, and often in games once a team gets up the offensive/coach control goes into overdrive. In gaems where there is any dispartiy in teams at all almots invariably at one point a team will try to stall to either end/balance out the game.

Behind the arc. In terms of shooting theory. You make more shots when you are on balance and your arm and body movement create singular positive energy on the ball. The more often you take contested shots or try to shoot over/around or through contact/defense the more often you are taking shots that don't meet that criteria. From a strictly bio-mecahnic perspective taking uncontested jump shots should be a better percentage then highly contested interior finishes. That being said because of coaching most kids are much more adept from early ages on and being able to finish in close regardless of the situation then just make open jumpshots. That is IMO one of the key differences between the North American game and International game over seas. The best kids in North America are trained to become proficient 1 on 1 players who can score a variety of ways vs individual defense. The best kids in other international coutnries are trained to be great shooters and to find ways to get themselves or other players open shots.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

Behind the arc. In terms of shooting theory. You make more shots when you are on balance and your arm and body movement create singular positive energy on the ball. The more often you take contested shots or try to shoot over/around or through contact/defense the more often you are taking shots that don't meet that criteria. From a strictly bio-mecahnic perspective taking uncontested jump shots should be a better percentage then highly contested interior finishes.

Not sure I entirely agree with that.

Even with perfect form, distance degrades accuracy. The farther from the basket a player is, there is a smaller and smaller set of trajectories x forces that will even have a chance of going in. Inside, the successful trajectories and forces are more plentiful. You have two independent factors diminishing the probability of a make....distances and defensive pressure. Those curves will certainly cross at some point where the pressure exceeds the effect of distance but I don't think it is always true that and open shot (at any distance) is better than an interior shot, even if highly contested.

Now, if you were referring to an uncontested 12-15' jump shot, I might agree, but not necessarily at 20' or 25'.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

... smaller and smaller set of trajectories x forces that will even have a chance of going in. Inside, the successful trajectories and forces are more plentiful. You have two independent factors diminishing the probability of a make ... curves will certainly cross at some point where the pressure exceeds the effect of distance.

Will this be on the test?

[letemplay]

I disagree somewhat with your statement Cam that a longer shot has a lower chance of going in than one of a shorter distance. I think the 3 point range, lets say 20-23', has become so practiced and the necessary arc, as you say, has been perfected my many, that it IS a more makeable shot. A player that is highly proficient at this distance might struggle with the release and arc necessary for a 10' from the short corner, for instance. Of course if this player practiced this shorter range as much as the 20 footer he might feel more comfortable, but where does he spend most of his practice time at? Beyond the arc, and why not...it's worth 1/3 more

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by letemplay

I...it's worth 1/3 more

I shake my head at BM's comments about math, then I see this.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by letemplay

Beyond the arc, and why not...it's worth 1/3 more

Ah yes, the new 2.6666666 point shot.

[letemplay]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Ah yes, the new 2.6666666 point shot.

Yes, I'm trying to help Billy with his physics

[letemplay]

...and Camron with geometry

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

The new 2.6666666 point shot.

Is this a 2013-14 change? I thought that the rule changes didn't come out until April?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by letemplay

I disagree somewhat with your statement Cam that a longer shot has a lower chance of going in than one of a shorter distance. I think the 3 point range, lets say 20-23', has become so practiced and the necessary arc, as you say, has been perfected my many, that it IS a more makeable shot. A player that is highly proficient at this distance might struggle with the release and arc necessary for a 10' from the short corner, for instance. Of course if this player practiced this shorter range as much as the 20 footer he might feel more comfortable, but where does he spend most of his practice time at? Beyond the arc, and why not...it's worth 1/3 more

We're talking the mechanics of shooting, not what distance a specific player has practiced at the most.

And it is 1/2 more, not 1/3 more.

[Pantherdreams]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Not sure I entirely agree with that.

Even with perfect form, distance degrades accuracy. The farther from the basket a player is, there is a smaller and smaller set of trajectories x forces that will even have a chance of going in. Inside, the successful trajectories and forces are more plentiful. You have two independent factors diminishing the probability of a make....distances and defensive pressure. Those curves will certainly cross at some point where the pressure exceeds the effect of distance but I don't think it is always true that and open shot (at any distance) is better than an interior shot, even if highly contested.

Now, if you were referring to an uncontested 12-15' jump shot, I might agree, but not necessarily at 20' or 25'.

My fault assuming you can shoot the distance of open jump shot without changing to faulty mechanics to gain power and sacrifice accuracy. This is the real issue. Because we can't shoot accurately with strength at range until years into players development for success, strategy and quality practice the number of reps (hours of practice/game situations) in finishing on the interior is just so much greater then long shots people get better at them. The same way I'm better at eating cereal then I am playing the piano. Could I be as good or better yes. Once I had the capability I would have to spend a ridiculous amount of time on playing piano though. Got my mastery of eating early

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

My fault assuming you can shoot the distance of open jump shot without changing to faulty mechanics to gain power and sacrifice accuracy. This is the real issue. Because we can't shoot accurately with strength at range until years into players development for success, strategy and quality practice the number of reps (hours of practice/game situations) in finishing on the interior is just so much greater then long shots people get better at them. The same way I'm better at eating cereal then I am playing the piano. Could I be as good or better yes. Once I had the capability I would have to spend a ridiculous amount of time on playing piano though. Got my mastery of eating early

Still, no matter how much a player practices at any given distance, the laws of physics will still always say that the ability to make a shot will go down in relation to the distance....even if the player is sufficiently strong and maintains perfect form at any distance. The effective target gets smaller and smaller the farther away it gets and, as a result, gets more difficult to hit.

[Pantherdreams]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Still, no matter how much a player practices at any given distance, the laws of physics will still always say that the ability to make a shot will go down in relation to the distance....even if the player is sufficiently strong and maintains perfect form at any distance. The effective target gets smaller and smaller the farther away it gets and, as a result, gets more difficult to hit.

Yes if that were the only determining factor I would agree. Someone with the actual science would have to confirm, but anecdotally having to adjust/practice to compensate for loss of results for 1 factor (distance) seems more repeatable to me. Having to adjust body, tragectory, release point, counterbalance fighting biomechanics and energy producers to keep the ball on line and on lift vs 1 or defensive players and potential contact seems like its more difficult to repeat in a uncontrolled environment. Now we are back to practice though.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

Got my mastery of eating.

I'm what you call an expert.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

From a strictly bio-mecahnic perspective taking uncontested jump shots should be a better percentage then highly contested interior finishes.

Um... no. The degree to which someone must be accurate increases with the square of the distance from the basket. Your statement is not even close to correct. What do you think the percentage success rate on dunks and layups are? Significantly higher than midrange or longrange shots, despite the fact that they are more highly contested.