Putting hands on official? (Video added)

[pfan1981]

Originally Posted by Rich

I've heard this argument before. Rural officials working city school games. As someone who works games involving both city and rural schools, there's no denying that the games are different beasts to call

Isn't basketball basketball? The NFHS rule book is not different depending on the game. Not looking to stir things up. A charge is a charge and a travel is a travel, etc. I understand the pace, offense, and defense may be different, but as the official, you enforce the same rule book. Watching the game, some Ts should have been given out earlier to get things under control.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by pfan1981

Isn't basketball basketball?

Basketball has always been a city game, played by city kids, at first Jewish kids, then Irish kids, and now, by many African American kids, without easy access to baseball fields, football fields, or hockey rinks, but with easy access to parks with lots, and lots, of basketball courts.

The suburban games, and rural games, are basketball, but they're a very different type of basketball. Not better. Not worse. Just different. I'm fortunate that I can officiate all different kinds of basketball here in my little corner of Connecticut, city, suburban, and rural, and I enjoy officiating all three types. I would probably have a problem if I only officiated city games and then had to do a game in a rural community. Contact that kids can play through in the city, they can't play through in the country. City games seem to move at a faster pace. The coaching is different. The players are different. The parents, and other fans, are different. And each group has a different expectation about how the game will officiated. It's the same game, but it's different, and very hard to explain, without being condescending to a particular group, or thought of as a racist, or a country-phile, or a city-phile.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by srp6977

JetMetFan-
You are correct on all counts. But several times leading up to this point in the game #4 white was trash talking and was angrily gesturing and talking to the officials. They didn't take care of it early, so it escalated into what it did.

I just watched the game again and focused on White #4. Unless he was doing a heck of a lot of stuff off camera, I don't see any gesturing at officials and only one instance of trash talking: he was the other guy involved when Blue #55 got his T. BTW, Blue #55 should have had a couple calls against him while playing defense in the post in the first four minutes of the game.

At any rate, White #4 had two common fouls against him. Both were in the 2nd and he never reacted to the official. After the 2nd foul (a hand check), Blue #11 gave him a shove and the two may have had words. One thing I will say about that play is the calling official should have blown his whistle a few seconds earlier when White #4 had a locked arm against Blue #11's torso. If he gets that, the second hand check - and possibly Blue #11's reaction - don't happen.

I'm not trying to be the kid's attorney but the video doesn't support saying he was "trash talking and...angrily gesturing and talking to the officials." Obviously I wasn't there so maybe stuff happened off camera but he sure didn't do anything out of the ordinary in front of the bright lights.

Originally Posted by paulsonj72

For an interesting(to say the least) perspective from some people read the comments from the Chicago Tribune Story

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports...,1172517.story

"...making contact with the official's head with his own head."

Did he do it from the grassy knoll, too?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by pfan1981

Isn't basketball basketball? The NFHS rule book is not different depending on the game. Not looking to stir things up. A charge is a charge and a travel is a travel, etc. I understand the pace, offense, and defense may be different, but as the official, you enforce the same rule book. Watching the game, some Ts should have been given out earlier to get things under control.

You work all your games in rural conferences and then try to work a big game in a big city and then we'll talk.

Billy's post upthread is spot on. It's a different style of play and how contact is called is one of the big factors. Another factor is how vigilant you have to be when it comes to things like trash talking and unsportsmanlike behaviors. Play routinely above the rim is another factor.

[legend]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Basketball has always been a city game, played by city kids, at first Jewish kids, then Irish kids, and now, by many African American kids, without easy access to baseball fields, football fields, or hockey rinks, but with easy access to parks with lots, and lots, of basketball courts.

The suburban games, and rural games, are basketball, but they're a very different type of basketball. Not better. Not worse. Just different. I'm fortunate that I can officiate all different kinds of basketball here in my little corner of Connecticut, city, suburban, and rural, and I enjoy officiating all three types. I would probably have a problem if I only officiated city games and then had to do a game in a rural community. Contact that kids can play through in the city, they can't play through in the country. City games seem to move at a faster pace. The coaching is different. The players are different. The parents, and other fans, are different. And each group has a different expectation about how the game will officiated. It's the same game, but it's different, and very hard to explain, without being condescending to a particular group, or thought of as a racist, or a country-phile, or a city-phile.

Great post...my guess is that one would just have to work both city and rural leagues to truly understand the differences in both. I vividly remember the first city league game I worked and (my guess is that) I seemed completely overwhelmed the first few minuets getting adjusted to the speed and athleticism the city kids had. You just simply can't officiate the two types of games the same. You see some of the plays that the city kids do and they are things that no rural kid that I've ever seen would be able to accomplish.

[Adam]

Typically, it seems to me the difference is more about the size of the school than the geographic location of the school. I work a lot of big school city ball, small school city ball, and rural ball (some rural schools are actually closer to me than some city schools within the local city limits), and school size is the biggest difference. Bigger schools have bigger talent pools from which to draw players, so the players are faster, stronger, taller, and play higher.

The key is to be flexible enough to recognize when contact presents an advantage and when it doesn't.

[twocentsworth]

just watched the first half....this crew wasn't ready for this game. Several plays/actions took place and the crew didn't know what to do/how to handle.....

regardless, players/coaches CAN'T let their emotions cause them to react as poorly as players/coaches did on both sides.....

[fullor30]

Billy Mac's post is spot on.....

That said, having a city school play a downstate rural school, I would have liked to seen a mix of officials that fit Billy's description who would have been able to adapt to any style game, it didn't appear to be the case here.

Second T was warranted, easy one. First one on kid, I dunno. I have know idea what he said, if he had been warned previously, but from tape only I would've passed, especially noting that #11 pushed him ever so slightly in back. To step in and tell him/them to knock it off seemed like the better course. Again from tape only, it didn't seem like much.

Earlier in game there was a situation with Seton coach where official should have gotten away from him after a warning regarding coach's box, Seton coach is then talking to official and is at most two feet out of box and official is pointing him to get back, you have to see it, it just doesn't look good.


Having watched most of game, it was ugly and a tough game to officiate.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Basketball has always been a city game, played by city kids, at first Jewish kids, then Irish kids, and now, by many African American kids, without easy access to baseball fields, football fields, or hockey rinks, but with easy access to parks with lots, and lots, of basketball courts.

The suburban games, and rural games, are basketball, but they're a very different type of basketball. Not better. Not worse. Just different. I'm fortunate that I can officiate all different kinds of basketball here in my little corner of Connecticut, city, suburban, and rural, and I enjoy officiating all three types. I would probably have a problem if I only officiated city games and then had to do a game in a rural community. Contact that kids can play through in the city, they can't play through in the country. City games seem to move at a faster pace. The coaching is different. The players are different. The parents, and other fans, are different. And each group has a different expectation about how the game will officiated. It's the same game, but it's different, and very hard to explain, without being condescending to a particular group, or thought of as a racist, or a country-phile, or a city-phile.

I think this was actually the best post I have ever read from you. Seriously!!!

Peace

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

just watched the first half....this crew wasn't ready for this game. Several plays/actions took place and the crew didn't know what to do/how to handle.....

I agree. I think some of the contact - especially the no-calls on block-charge situations - caught them off guard. Once those happened they were in trouble.

Another thing that struck me: the body language of the crew during some of the situations. Example: the look on the official's face when he called the T on Blue #55. Also, the look on the officials' faces when they addressed the coaches. Again, I wasn't there and I have no idea what was said but one thing discussed in other threads is trying to keep emotion out of things when making calls.

I'm planning to post some plays from the 1st half when I get home from work later this morning. As always, I'm not doing it to ride the officials. We've all been there at some point. It's more to show how a couple of calls here and there can change things for the better...both for the game and for us.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by fullor30

I would have liked to seen a mix of officials that fit Billy's description who would have been able to adapt to any style game.

Hey. I was available. It was an open date for me on Arbiter. My bag was packed. Nobody called me.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I think this was actually the best post I have ever read from you. Seriously!!!

Peace

Me too.

[SE Minnestoa Re]

Despite most state associations' working hard on improving sportsmanship, it seems like it isn't getting any better. A couple of things I have heard about inthe past couple of days:

1) the issues on this thread
2) In Minnesota, a coach being escorted out of the game by police. And this happened during a 5th grade tournament.

We need to change culture if we ever want this to get better. As officials, I think we need to accept our share of the blame.

Do we "T" up players we see finger wagging?

Do we let coaches howl at us for an entire game, often outside of the coaching box?

Do we not want to call the early handcheck because "it is a cheap foul"

I will guarantee you that if we as officials started enforcing sportsmanship to the letter of the law much of this negative behavior would cease. A couple of ejections coupled with a couple of suspension should send the message that this type of behavior is not acceptable.

Piggybacking on Billy's comments about where you work, I work exclusively rural games. If you put me in the middle of an inner city game, I would be like a fish out of water.

[srp6977]

I'm not trying to be the kid's attorney but the video doesn't support saying he was "trash talking and...angrily gesturing and talking to the officials." Obviously I wasn't there so maybe stuff happened off camera but he sure didn't do anything out of the ordinary in front of the bright lights.

The camera doesn't do it justice. I was there mid-court 6 rows up. The kid had a gesture and comment for everything. I saw the f-word fly multiple times from him before he got his first T.

BillyMac nailed it on the head in his earlier post. Couldn't have said it better.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by SE Minnestoa Re

Despite most state associations' working hard on improving sportsmanship, it seems like it isn't getting any better. A couple of things I have heard about inthe past couple of days:

1) the issues on this thread
2) In Minnesota, a coach being escorted out of the game by police. And this happened during a 5th grade tournament.

We need to change culture if we ever want this to get better. As officials, I think we need to accept our share of the blame.

Do we "T" up players we see finger wagging?

Do we let coaches howl at us for an entire game, often outside of the coaching box?

Do we not want to call the early handcheck because "it is a cheap foul"

I will guarantee you that if we as officials started enforcing sportsmanship to the letter of the law much of this negative behavior would cease. A couple of ejections coupled with a couple of suspension should send the message that this type of behavior is not acceptable.

Piggybacking on Billy's comments about where you work, I work exclusively rural games. If you put me in the middle of an inner city game, I would be like a fish out of water.

Just worked a few USSSA games this weekend. A quick "knock it off" to players "jostling" for position didn't work. A double fist right after the verbal "warning" did work. I also approached a coach about a player "playing to the crowd" after a made 3. (Also told the kid to knock it off) No more problems after that. In my opinion, the double foul call is a great tool that too often is left unused in the tool box.