Clip(s): Kansas v. Iowa State

[twocentsworth]

Originally Posted by jeschmit

I'm with JetMet on this one... However, I understand why NCAAM wants the L to have everything in the paint with there being more of an opportunity for above the rim play. On the women's side, there isn't hardly any play above the rim, so the C has more of an opportunity to referee their primary... including half of the lane.

The reason NCAA-M want the Lead taking block/charge plays in the paint, is because it is the help-side/secondary defender who is involved in the contact! How can the Center (or Trail, for that matter), see past the defender who has been beaten, see thru the offensive player w/ the ball (who is moving AWAY from C or T), and then find the secondary defender to determined if LGP or the RA is in play? The ONLY PERSON able to accurately officiate the secondary defender is the L......

This is a case of the Lead missing an obvious PC, and THEN calling a foul that wasn't there (whether you factor in time/score or not).

To be honest, it's the delayed holding foul called on the defender that makes the missed PC foul REEEEAAAALLLLLY bad!

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

The reason NCAA-M want the Lead taking block/charge plays in the paint, is because it is the help-side/secondary defender who is involved in the contact! How can the Center (or Trail, for that matter), see past the defender who has been beaten, see thru the offensive player w/ the ball (who is moving AWAY from C or T), and then find the secondary defender to determined if LGP or the RA is in play? The ONLY PERSON able to accurately officiate the secondary defender is the L......

That's a nice philosophy, but to say it is an absolute that the L makes this call is to set up a situation exactly like what happened in this game.

The initial defender is between the L and the ball handler, so there really isn't anyway the L can make this call. The person with the best opportunity to see the contact on this play is the C, and he doesn't do anything to put himself in position to get it...obviously just guessing here, but I would bet that the C didn't work for an angle because he thought that the L would get it.

Had the L closed down/pinched, then maybe he would have gotten it...but the C should never just stand there and let the play go thinking the L will get it.

[cmb]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

That's a nice philosophy, but to say it is an absolute that the L makes this call is to set up a situation exactly like what happened in this

It's not an absolute. It's just the L's primary. The C can (and should) have a whistle if there is sufficient contact and no whistle from the L.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by cmb

It's not an absolute. It's just the L's primary. The C can (and should) have a whistle if there is sufficient contact and no whistle from the L.

Yes. I know...I was simply responding to the capitalized/emphasized portion of a previous post.

[twocentsworth]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

That's a nice philosophy, but to say it is an absolute that the L makes this call is to set up a situation exactly like what happened in this game.

The initial defender is between the L and the ball handler, so there really isn't anyway the L can make this call. The person with the best opportunity to see the contact on this play is the C, and he doesn't do anything to put himself in position to get it...obviously just guessing here, but I would bet that the C didn't work for an angle because he thought that the L would get it.

Had the L closed down/pinched, then maybe he would have gotten it...but the C should never just stand there and let the play go thinking the L will get it.

Look at this play AGAIN. It's the SECONDARY defender who takes the contact. This is the PERFECT example of why the LEAD has to officiate this play.

[bob jenkins]

Anybody could have had a whistle. Somebody should of had a whistle. Nobody had a whistle. Everybody got downgraded.

[LeeBallanfant]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Anybody could have had a whistle. Somebody should of had a whistle. Nobody had a whistle. Everybody got downgraded.

DALLAS (AP) The Big 12 says officiating errors were made at the end of regulation before No. 6 Kansas outlasted Iowa State in overtime on Monday night.

The league said Tuesday that "appropriate measures will be taken" against the two officials involved, including an adjustment of "the number of future assignments."

The Big 12 did not identify the officials or the plays in question.

Kansas's Elijah Johnson drove into the lane and got tangled up with Iowa State's Georges Niang with less than 10 seconds left. No foul was called, and Niang was then whistled for fouling Johnson on the floor. Johnson sank two free throws to force OT with 4.9 seconds left.

Kansas won the game 108-96.
STATS Hosted Solution | News Story - Big 12 admits officiating errors in Kansas win - NCAA Basketball - Basketball

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

That's a nice philosophy, but to say it is an absolute that the L makes this call is to set up a situation exactly like what happened in this game.

The initial defender is between the L and the ball handler, so there really isn't anyway the L can make this call. The person with the best opportunity to see the contact on this play is the C, and he doesn't do anything to put himself in position to get it...obviously just guessing here, but I would bet that the C didn't work for an angle because he thought that the L would get it.

Had the L closed down/pinched, then maybe he would have gotten it...but the C should never just stand there and let the play go thinking the L will get it.

Disagree completely that there "isn't anyway the L can make this call" or that the C has best opportunity to see contact on this play. The L should have already been refereeing the secondary defender and while the initial defender is there, the L still has a great look at the play.

The C, on the other hand has the ball handler, initial defender, and two other players between him and the contact. Thus he is not likely at all to be able to pick up whether or not the secondary defender has LGP. So to me this play is another example that supports the NCAAM philosophy of having the L having this in their primary.

And as for your guess that the C didn't work for a better angle because he felt the L would get it, that comes across as a convenient way to criticize a philosophy you don't necessarily agree with. I'd bet that the C didnt work to get a better angle because he got stuck watching the drive to the basket and then stayed high because it was so quick.

Either way someone should have had a whistle on this play and the positioning of all three officials, especially the L and C has room for criticism. And with the positions they were ultimately in, the L had the best look and should have had a relatively easy PC. He then compounds it with a marginal foul call on the defender.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

Disagree completely that there "isn't anyway the L can make this call" or that the C has best opportunity to see contact on this play. The L should have already been refereeing the secondary defender and while the initial defender is there, the L still has a great look at the play.

The C, on the other hand has the ball handler, initial defender, and two other players between him and the contact. Thus he is not likely at all to be able to pick up whether or not the secondary defender has LGP. So to me this play is another example that supports the NCAAM philosophy of having the L having this in their primary.

And as for your guess that the C didn't work for a better angle because he felt the L would get it, that comes across as a convenient way to criticize a philosophy you don't necessarily agree with. I'd bet that the C didnt work to get a better angle because he got stuck watching the drive to the basket and then stayed high because it was so quick.

Either way someone should have had a whistle on this play and the positioning of all three officials, especially the L and C has room for criticism. And with the positions they were ultimately in, the L had the best look and should have had a relatively easy PC. He then compounds it with a marginal foul call on the defender.

Disagree all you want to...the L did not move to a position where he could see that play, so there is no way he could make that call. That's what I said before, it's what I am saying now. Should he have moved-yes. Already said that, too. No way in the world the C should have stopped referring that play, and no way in the world the C should have stopped moving to get an angle on that play. So what exactly are you disagreeing with?

And I am not criticizing the NCAAM philosophy here, just criticizing an earlier statement that the L is the "ONLY ONE" who can have a whistle on this play.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Disagree all you want to...the L did not move to a position where he could see that play, so there is no way he could make that call. That's what I said before, it's what I am saying now. Should he have moved-yes. Already said that, too. No way in the world the C should have stopped referring that play, and no way in the world the C should have stopped moving to get an angle on that play. So what exactly are you disagreeing with?


And I am not criticizing the NCAAM philosophy here, just criticizing an earlier statement that the L is the "ONLY ONE" who can have a whistle on this play.

Pretty clear what I am disagreeing with as stated in my earlier post. You said there is no way for the L to make this call because the initial defender was between him and the ball handler. I disagree with that- the L still had a great look at the play. And I agree that the L should have closed down more but disagree that even with the position he had that there is "no way" he can make the call. He could and should have.

I also disagree with your statement that the person with the best opportunity to see the contact on this play is the C for the reasons stated in my earlier post. So not sure why it's hard to understand what I'm disagreeing with.

And it's my mistake if I made the assumption that you disagree with the philosophy of the L having the primary on this. But nobody has said that the L is the only one that can have a whistle here. I believe what twocents said is the the L is the only one that can accurately officiate the secondary defender. Big difference there.

[Nikki]

The biggest problem is not if the NCAAM or NCAAW coverage is better (I like NCAAW ) it's that NOT ONE of the three was in position to referee this play. L should've pinched, C should have at least been FTLE (probably another step or two down since this play originated from his primary I believe he should have stayed with it) and T should have been at least at the 28ft line and could have came with a strong whistle and taking a few steps toward the basket-he actually might have had the best angle. Not one of them was in position to referee anything that happened with less than 10 seconds on the clock in a close ball game. To me that is the biggest issue.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Nikki

The biggest problem is not if the NCAAM or NCAAW coverage is better (I like NCAAW ) it's that NOT ONE of the three was in position to referee this play. L should've pinched, C should have at least been FTLE (probably another step or two down since this play originated from his primary I believe he should have stayed with it) and T should have been at least at the 28ft line and could have came with a strong whistle and taking a few steps toward the basket-he actually might have had the best angle. Not one of them was in position to referee anything that happened with less than 10 seconds on the clock in a close ball game. To me that is the biggest issue.

Go get 'em, Nikki!

Apart from this, I'm surprised as others are that only two crew memebrs are being disciplined. I would've thought the conference would've said all of them catch heat or none of them. The guy who was the T on that play was the new L on the Withey/Young foul call and had a whistle on it, though he wasn't the one who reported the foul. In any event, it seems all three had a role in this one during the final 30 seconds of regulation.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

Pretty clear what I am disagreeing with as stated in my earlier post. You said there is no way for the L to make this call because the initial defender was between him and the ball handler. I disagree with that- the L still had a great look at the play. And I agree that the L should have closed down more but disagree that even with the position he had that there is "no way" he can make the call. He could and should have.

I also disagree with your statement that the person with the best opportunity to see the contact on this play is the C for the reasons stated in my earlier post. So not sure why it's hard to understand what I'm disagreeing with.

And it's my mistake if I made the assumption that you disagree with the philosophy of the L having the primary on this. But nobody has said that the L is the only one that can have a whistle here. I believe what twocents said is the the L is the only one that can accurately officiate the secondary defender. Big difference there.

Ok, I get it. I said the L couldn't have a good enough look at the play to make the call, and that he should have pinched to get a look. And I said the C should have kept moving to get an angle on the play. And you disagreed with those things. Ok.

Interesting that the article posted only says that two of the officials will be disciplined...wonder why the third is not included in that?

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Ok, I get it. I said the L couldn't have a good enough look at the play to make the call, and that he should have pinched to get a look. And I said the C should have kept moving to get an angle on the play. And you disagreed with those things. Ok.

Interesting that the article posted only says that two of the officials will be disciplined...wonder why the third is not included in that?

Not sure if you are intentionally trying to twist things around or what. As I stated more than once I agree that the L should have pinched and that the C should have worked for a better angle. But they didnt.

So what I disagree with is your statements that there was no way the L could see the play or have a whistle given the position he was in AND I disagree with your statement that the C is the person with the best opportunity to see the contact on this play.

It is interesting that that the 3rd official was not included. Would have been nice had he come in and saved the crew but he's the least culpable of the three IMO.