Scheduler is NOT my friend!

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by deecee

And that one time I did and after the game, which was close and the team lost the scorer says, "Hey, I messed up and you had one more."

Who do you think took the brunt of that?

I inform the scorer to let the coach know this info, and I don't care what the book says. BTW the scorer is an official.

As officials we take the brunt of a lot things, a lot of which we shouldn't but that's how it goes.

In this instance it's easily on the scorer for giving incorrect information. Just as if they notified us of a 7th team foul when it was really 6 or vice versa.

And as you mentioned, at the Varsity level 99.9% of coaches have their own scorer and an assistant tracking timeouts. If they have a discrepancy when we inform they are out of timeouts they should bring it up with the official book then. So your situation was also on the coaching staff for not verifying that their own book matched up with the info from the scorer. It's not on you by any means for simply doing what, by rule, you are suppose to do.

To just say you aren't going to do what the rules say you are to do b/c you had ONE bad experience with it is kind of lame. Particularly when I think it will prevent problems A LOT more than it will cause them.

And for the record, I am someone who absolutely does not tell teams how many timeouts they have left except when they are out and when my partners tell me team A has 2 TOs left and team B has 3, I let them know I do not care to know unless they have zero.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by egj13

So after this weekend...my final in Montana...the scheduler is no longer my friend!

So Friday night I work a VB game at school A...school A is jockying for playoff seeding and school B is #1 in the state. Needless to say school A expected to get routed (so the assistant told me) but as you know that never works out at this point in the season.

This is not a big deal, but I have no idea what that means.

Originally Posted by egj13

On the jump ball it is tipped to my sideline (3-person) and a B player grabs it then steps on the sideline. I give the ball to A and we begin play. The R had the arrow set towards team B because he thought it went out before the player touched it. We get ready to throw the ball in to start the second quarter and A coach says it should be their ball. I confer with the R and he says he set the arrow in the wrong direction because confusion so we switch it. As we turn around our 3rd partner is in a discussion with the B coach about a three that was counted in the official book as a two. So we talk, recall that we did signal a three for B #4 and have the book change it. So of course the A coach goes nuts saying it is outside the correctable error timeframe which I tell him the score can be corrected at any point. Turn back around again and now the B coach wants to know why we changed the arrow. I explain that the player caught it before stepping out, the player and coach say no way...I say coach I'll be honest, it has been about 15 minutes but that is how I recall it happening and that is what we are going with. So after 5 minutes or so we get it all settled.

Well this seems to be a communication problem. That play should have been communicated to at least the crew so that everyone was on the same page. All this confusion did was give the coach some ammo to complain. I had a situation in a game this year during an OT jump ball, when we had possession by A1 and B1 came and caused a held ball. I had to explain to the coach immediately what we had and it took about 30 seconds so that we did not have an issue later. If it was explained better when it happened, you might not have had the confusion later.

Peace

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by deecee

And that one time I did and after the game, which was close and the team lost the scorer says, "Hey, I messed up and you had one more."

Who do you think took the brunt of that?

I inform the scorer to let the coach know this info, and I don't care what the book says. BTW the scorer is an official.

If you tell the coach and s/he thinks s/he still has one left, then you can get it straightened out then.

If you tell the coach and s/he doesn't know s/he really has one left, then it's on them, no matter how much they try to drag you under the bus with them.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by egj13

Agreed Maven and double checking the arrow is added to my list of future things to do.

We had told the coach he had 1 remaining...again, I was across the court and thought one of the other two would have notified him of zero remaining. It would have cleared all of that up at that point.

If I'm table side on the jump, I'm coming in to ask you about the OOB to be sure we are all on the same page about the arrow. I might even be "obvious" about telling the table which way to set it so the coaches know.

Any time there's a TO in a close game near the end, the officials should get together and all should be reminded of the TO situation and know who is going to tell the coach.

BTW, I always phrase it, "I know you know this, but I'm required to tell you ..." And, I show it with a fist so it shows up on tape.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

If you tell the coach and s/he thinks s/he still has one left, then you can get it straightened out then.

If you tell the coach and s/he doesn't know s/he really has one left, then it's on them, no matter how much they try to drag you under the bus with them.

That's a good way to look at it.

[egj13]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

This is not a big deal, but I have no idea what that means.

That is confusing..I had seen the coach at the store a couple days prior and he told me they planned on being blown out...but it is my experience that late in the season teams pull off upsets you never thought they would.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Well this seems to be a communication problem. That play should have been communicated to at least the crew so that everyone was on the same page. All this confusion did was give the coach some ammo to complain. I had a situation in a game this year during an OT jump ball, when we had possession by A1 and B1 came and caused a held ball. I had to explain to the coach immediately what we had and it took about 30 seconds so that we did not have an issue later. If it was explained better when it happened, you might not have had the confusion later.

Peace

Definate communication issue. I take blame because I didn't realize that the play on the tip was that close. It seemed obvious to me that the kid caught it and went OOB. Lesson learned.

[SCalScoreKeeper]

Bob-I do the same thing upon a team calling its final timeout.Upon signaling what it is (I always signal what the last one is) I put a closed fist into the air to signify last timeout for whichever team is using it and then notify the reporting official that it was the last timeout.Notification for me is like this "(First Name of reporting official)-final time out for (Insert Color)."

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by egj13

That is what we told her in the locker room postgame. I get asked for pre-emptive TOs reguarly but always turn back to them and ask if they still want it. How many times have we had coaches change their mind.

The Old Lead/New Trail should not even be looking for a time-out call during this free throw sequence. There is an official, Old Trail/New Lead, who is standing right there by the coach who can handle any request that may come from the HC.

Originally Posted by deecee

This is confusing. He is clearly not asking for a TO and I hate to say it but unless the coach request a TO, I don't take prorated TO requests. I will inform them that I need to see a signal. Then I will issue the TO.

Originally Posted by egj13

I get asked for pre-emptive TOs reguarly but always turn back to them and ask if they still want it. How many times have we had coaches change their mind.

How prorated or pre-emptive are you talking about? I had a situation where Team A was down 5 points with the ball. I was C, tableside, right in front of Team A's bench. Team A attempted a 3-point try. While it was in midair, Team A coach said to me, "timeout if it goes". Swish, timeout, Team A still lost. Is this something you would do or not?

Another situation in the same game, maybe 10 seconds later. I am still C, still tableside. Team B is attempting a frontcourt throw-in near the division line opposite the table. I am in front of team B's bench. The Trail across the court starts his five-second count, and Team B coach tells me he wants a timeout if they cannot inbound the ball. As the Trail is counting, Team B coach is counting out loud, "one, two three". He got to four and almost asked me for it, but his team got the ball in.

I presume doing these things is ok, but are these the prorated or pre-emptive TO's you gentlemen are talking about? If not, what would an example be?

Originally Posted by SCalScoreKeeper

Question-why do some officials ask for players with 3 or 4 fouls on both sides? Seen it a lot this year.

Perhaps to make sure the players were not DQ'd on a cheap foul?

[ronny mulkey]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

If I'm table side on the jump, I'm coming in to ask you about the OOB to be sure we are all on the same page about the arrow. I might even be "obvious" about telling the table which way to set it so the coaches know.

Any time there's a TO in a close game near the end, the officials should get together and all should be reminded of the TO situation and know who is going to tell the coach.

BTW, I always phrase it, "I know you know this, but I'm required to tell you ..." And, I show it with a fist so it shows up on tape.

I really like the part about the tape. Putting it in my game.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by seanwestref

How prorated or pre-emptive are you talking about? I had a situation where Team A was down 5 points with the ball. I was C, tableside, right in front of Team A's bench. Team A attempted a 3-point try. While it was in midair, Team A coach said to me, "timeout if it goes". Swish, timeout, Team A still lost. Is this something you would do or not?

Another situation in the same game, maybe 10 seconds later. I am still C, still tableside. Team B is attempting a frontcourt throw-in near the division line opposite the table. I am in front of team B's bench. The Trail across the court starts his five-second count, and Team B coach tells me he wants a timeout if they cannot inbound the ball. As the Trail is counting, Team B coach is counting out loud, "one, two three". He got to four and almost asked me for it, but his team got the ball in.

I presume doing these things is ok, but are these the prorated or pre-emptive TO's you gentlemen are talking about? If not, what would an example be?

Perhaps to make sure the players were not DQ'd on a cheap foul?

Ill look at the coach after the make for confirmation and then I will blow my whistle. I am acknowledging the TO on the make but not blowing my whistle without confirmation.

In the second stitch I would have to hear him actually request a TO.

[egj13]

Originally Posted by seanwestref

How prorated or pre-emptive are you talking about? I had a situation where Team A was down 5 points with the ball. I was C, tableside, right in front of Team A's bench. Team A attempted a 3-point try. While it was in midair, Team A coach said to me, "timeout if it goes". Swish, timeout, Team A still lost. Is this something you would do or not?

Another situation in the same game, maybe 10 seconds later. I am still C, still tableside. Team B is attempting a frontcourt throw-in near the division line opposite the table. I am in front of team B's bench. The Trail across the court starts his five-second count, and Team B coach tells me he wants a timeout if they cannot inbound the ball. As the Trail is counting, Team B coach is counting out loud, "one, two three". He got to four and almost asked me for it, but his team got the ball in.

I presume doing these things is ok, but are these the prorated or pre-emptive TO's you gentlemen are talking about? If not, what would an example be?



Perhaps to make sure the players were not DQ'd on a cheap foul?

I would grant the first but not the second without visual confirmation first.

[JetMetFan]

As has been said before, sometimes we're our own worst enemies.

Regarding the OP, ditto on what everyone else has said. The AP problem goes away with communication right when the issue happens after the jump ball. We should always take a second as a crew to talk when something unusual happens. It's the R's responsibility to make sure the arrow is set initially but ultimately it's the entire crew's responsibility.

The time out situation is a game management issue on the part of the crew. It's late in the game and one team calls time out. We have that dead ball period to go to the table and check on the time out situation for both teams. It's a close game. Chances are one or both teams will be close to running out. If one team has none, notify that team as per the rule book. If that team calls time out after that, it's on them.

Originally Posted by deecee

And that one time I did and after the game, which was close and the team lost the scorer says, "Hey, I messed up and you had one more."

Who do you think took the brunt of that?

I inform the scorer to let the coach know this info, and I don't care what the book says. BTW the scorer is an official.

As for this, I'm with everyone else concerning the "I don't care.." line. If I'm your supervisor, I tell you "I don't care how you feel, do what the book says in that spot." Period. If the official scorer tells you Team A has no more time outs, cover yourself by asking again to confirm...then you ask the other team's scorer if that's what they have. If everyone agrees, tell Team A's coach. By rule we don't have to do that but the extra ten seconds won't kill you plus at that point you've done your job. If it's later realized by the table that Team A had one remaining, so be it. If the coach questions me, I tell him/her: "Coach, that's what I was told and I double checked it." They might be upset but they'll live.

Also, how would you "take the brunt" of anything? Was the scorer running around with a bullhorn saying "Team A had another time out!" If he/she messed that up, I get on them, especially if it's an official. I can't assume many things but I should be able to trust that an adult can count to five.

I work 99% of my H.S. games with students at the table so I've grown wary of trusting them outright and if something sounds wrong I'll question it. My partners and I also try to communicate early and often with them. However, they are still going to make mistakes. If we've done our part then the best I can do is tell the coach there was a mistake, we correct it and we move on.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by SCalScoreKeeper

Exactly-and when I sit on the bench doing stats I keep track of timeouts on my board.As a scorer I will inform the officials on the floor.What they do with that info is up to them.If a coach asks I will tell them.Question-why do some officials ask for players with 3 or 4 fouls on both sides? Seen it a lot this year.

I will ask it sometimes after the 3rd quarter but only for both scorekeepers to compare their books so we don't have any surprises in the 4th quarter where 1 scorekeeper says A1 only has 4 fouls while the other says A1 has 5 fouls.

Originally Posted by egj13

I would grant the first but not the second without visual confirmation first.

Me too. The second one was meant to prep me in case his team could not inbound the ball. Like "hey, be aware I am calling timeout if we can't get the ball in". I would certainly not want to be in a situation where my partner calls a 5-second violation on the inbound, and I come over and say "well, the coach wanted a TO before the violation, so no violation". That will never happen, believe me.