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Old Mon Feb 18, 2013, 11:10am
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Intentional trip

I had one play on Friday night that nobody else probably even noticed, but I've been thinking about it:

NFHS game:

Ball's loose on the floor. Players diving. Ball bounces to a player who has a pretty clear path ahead of him and he's moving pretty quickly as he came in on the dead run and picked up the ball. Defender on the floor reaches up with a hand to try to trip the kid with the ball. Fortunately for everyone, he whiffs (the player went around/over the outstretched arm) and completes the layup.

Had that trip happened, I was prepared to go flagrant with it.

The game continued and I never went back to it, but in retrospect it was one of the dirtier things I've seen in a while.
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Old Mon Feb 18, 2013, 11:18am
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If the trip had happened: definitely intentional... HTBT to determine if it's upgraded to flagrant.
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Old Mon Feb 18, 2013, 11:39am
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I've had this happen and called intentional. What was your rationale for going straight to flagrant? I don't see this as worse than a push in the back on a layup (that I've also called intentional).
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Old Mon Feb 18, 2013, 12:05pm
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I think the title of the post says it all--intentional trip. I'm not reaching for a flagrant.
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Old Mon Feb 18, 2013, 12:34pm
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I'd definitely consider flagrant.

If a player intentionally fouls someone when they are in a severe disadvantageous position, and the effect is egregious, they need to be highly accountable for their action(s).

To me, it's an INT at minimum, and something obvious would need to sell me on the flagrant. If a previous foul by this player of a similar nature occurred, or it is clear that his intent was to foul in a way that results in an injury, for starters.
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Old Mon Feb 18, 2013, 12:48pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mplagrow View Post
I think the title of the post says it all--intentional trip. I'm not reaching for a flagrant.
What would he have to do for you to call a flagrant foul, draw blood? Break a bone?

From the definition of flagrant fouls (4-19-4): "If personal, it involves, but is not limited to violent contact such as: striking, kicking and kneeing." Deliberately tripping an opponent on the way to the basket could certainly count.

In baseball, one of the criteria of malicious contact is intent to injure. That's not a bad rule of thumb for distinguishing mere intentional fouls from flagrant fouls.

But the question I have for Rich is: did it occur to you that the swing-and-miss might constitute fighting? It seems to satisfy 4-18-1.
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Old Mon Feb 18, 2013, 12:55pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maven View Post
What would he have to do for you to call a flagrant foul, draw blood? Break a bone?
Something a lot worse than an intentional trip in this fashion.

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Originally Posted by maven View Post
But the question I have for Rich is: did it occur to you that the swing-and-miss might constitute fighting? It seems to satisfy 4-18-1.
Really? Fighting? Are you serious?
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Old Mon Feb 18, 2013, 12:58pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maven View Post
What would he have to do for you to call a flagrant foul, draw blood? Break a bone?

From the definition of flagrant fouls (4-19-4): "If personal, it involves, but is not limited to violent contact such as: striking, kicking and kneeing."
What he'd have to do for me to call a flagrant is "violent contact such as: striking, kicking and kneeing." Reaching out to grab a kid to intentionally foul him to stop a drive is not on the same level IMHO. But I'd have to see it, and it could also depend on the game dynamics.
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Old Mon Feb 18, 2013, 02:29pm
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Originally Posted by Smitty View Post
Something a lot worse than an intentional trip in this fashion.
Define "worse" as you're using it, and relate it to the definition of flagrant foul.

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Really? Fighting? Are you serious?
Did you read the question?
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Old Mon Feb 18, 2013, 02:38pm
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Without seeing the play, I can't imagine calling a flagrant on this play. Rich doesn't go there lightly, though, so I am guessing I'm picturing the play differently than it happened.

Like a push in the back, I'm stopping at intentional most of the time, and only going flagrant if it's exceptionally vicious (a leg whip, for example).

I would say that if a successful trip or push looks flagrant, then an unsuccessful attempt should at least be a technical foul.
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Old Mon Feb 18, 2013, 02:39pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maven View Post
Define "worse" as you're using it, and relate it to the definition of flagrant foul.
In my opinion it doesn't meet the definition of a flagrant foul. By definition of the thread it's an intentional foul. I said I thought a push in the back during a layup is worse and that's intentional most of the time.


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Did you read the question?
Yes, which is why I was so incredulous.
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