Players not in book

[The_Rookie]

BV playoff game last night...at 3minute mark of 2nd QTR..Team A brings in 2 subs..the table hits the horn notifying officials that neither player listed in the book.

Do we have one technical foul or two?

[JRutledge]

One.

10-1-2

A team shall not:

After the 10-minute time limit specified in Article 1:

a. Change a designated starter unless necessitated as in 3-2-2a.

b. Add a name to the team member list.

c. Require the scorer to change a team member's or player's number in the scorebook.

d. Require a player to change to the number in the scorebook.

e. Have identical numbers on team members and/or players.

PENALTY: (Art. 2) One foul only per team regardless of the number of infractions. (Art. 2a) Penalized if discovered before ball becomes live to start game. (Arts. 2b, c, d) Penalized when they occur. (Art. 2e) Penalized when discovered.

Peace

[Nevadaref]

One or zero.
Before issuing a technical foul, check for the team roster that was supplied to the official scorer prior to the game. If the roster is correct, but the scorer made a transcription error, then don't penalize the team.
If the roster is missing these players, then ONE team technical foul is warranted.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by The_Rookie

BV playoff game last night...at 3minute mark of 2nd QTR..Team A brings in 2 subs..the table hits the horn notifying officials that neither player listed in the book.

Can the coach withdraw the two substitutes before the names are added to the scorebook (and obviously before the ball becomes live) to avoid a technical foul?

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Can the coach withdraw the two substitutes before the names are added to the scorebook (and obviously before the ball becomes live) to avoid a technical foul?

Not if they've already been beckoned.

BV coach tried that in a game this year. One of his kids was wearing #17 (really???) and we told him before the game if the player comes in he - the HC - gets a T. For some odd reason he has the kid check in midway through the 4th quarter of a 6-point game. As we wave him on the coach tells my partner, "Wait, I didn't mean for him to go in!" Riiiiiiight.

The same kid also picked up an IF with two minutes left. Their team ended up winning despite themselves.

[SCalScoreKeeper]

This is easily preventable by the official scorer-had this scenario in a JVG game two weeks ago:

On varsity my policy is to carry copies of each teams roster in my notebook.Upon arrival of visiting teams I have the coaches verify the roster and make corrections if needed.The only corrections I had this year were injury/illness scratches.My rosters and starters for girls games are in well before the start of the warm-up clock.Boys coaches don't show up until 3'rd quarter of girls game so I usually need about 6 minutes to get the rosters/starters verified and in.

On JV I just copy the previously submitted roster for league teams.If dealing with an out of league opponent I copy their book.Regardless of level I will always ask a coach to verify their roster and then get their starters.

*In this scenario I copied the roster from the previous game (league opponent) and asked the V head coach to verify # and names are correct.She did and midway thru the first quarter we had a problem.After an offensive rebound and basket by V timeout was called by H and as I went to give the V shooter her points the number wasn't in the book.Called the R over and told him the scenario.R brings coach over and asked her if I had asked her to verify the roster-she says yes and R gives her a T for changing a number.Kid wore #11 the first time (their home game) and #42 this time (our home game)-checked remaining numbers and everything was good.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by SCalScoreKeeper

This is easily preventable by the official scorer-had this scenario in a JVG game two weeks ago:

On varsity my policy is to carry copies of each teams roster in my notebook.Upon arrival of visiting teams I have the coaches verify the roster and make corrections if needed.The only corrections I had this year were injury/illness scratches.My rosters and starters for girls games are in well before the start of the warm-up clock.Boys coaches don't show up until 3'rd quarter of girls game so I usually need about 6 minutes to get the rosters/starters verified and in.

On JV I just copy the previously submitted roster for league teams.If dealing with an out of league opponent I copy their book.Regardless of level I will always ask a coach to verify their roster and then get their starters.

*In this scenario I copied the roster from the previous game (league opponent) and asked the V head coach to verify # and names are correct.She did and midway thru the first quarter we had a problem.After an put-back timeout was called by white and as I went to give the shooter her points the number wasn't in the book.Called the R over and told him the scenario.R brings coach over and asked her if I had asked her to verify the roster-she says yes and R gives her a T for changing a number.Kid wore #11 the first time (their home game) and #42 this time (our home game)-checked remaining numbers and everything was good.

Well, in most cases, but not always.....

We had a VB game last week. The JV coach had been named interim head coach earlier in the week. A new scorer was being used as apparently the former scorer only worked for the now former head coach. We had a player with his JV number in the book (remember, the head V Coach was also the JV coach). They also decided to dress an extra player about 5 minutes before pregame ended.

RESULT: Two book violations during the first half. One Technical for the first violation....No technical for the second violation per rule highlighted by JRut previously.

[SCalScoreKeeper]

Does the coach also lose their box for this Technical Foul? if he/she does then the officials got part of the rule correct as she was allowed to remain standing for the next three quarters.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Can the coach withdraw the two substitutes before the names are added to the scorebook (and obviously before the ball becomes live) to avoid a technical foul?

Yes. Until the substitute enters the court, they are not a player and do not have to be added.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by SCalScoreKeeper

Does the coach also lose their box for this Technical Foul? if he/she does then the officials got part of the rule correct as she was allowed to remain standing for the next three quarters.

No T (direct or indirect) on the coach for book related T's. Those are team technical fouls only.

[SCalScoreKeeper]

Thanks Cameron

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Not if they've already been beckoned.

Is there a rule basis for this? Or is it a local philosophy?

Personally, I'd give the coach the option to withdraw the sub. Just the other night I beckoned a player during a free throw only to have the coach pull him back before he came in. He's not a player until he plays, IMO.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Adam

He's not a player until he plays, IMO.

A substitute becomes a player when he legally enters the court. 4-34-3

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

A substitute becomes a player when he legally enters the court. 4-34-3

I understand that. I'm just saying that in this case, I'm giving some latitude to prevent the player from entering if the coach wants to prevent the T.

Either way, whether he's beckoned or not doesn't really matter here. If I beckon him, and the coach pulls him back before he enters, then my latitude isn't even necessary.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Adam

I understand that. I'm just saying that in this case, I'm giving some latitude to prevent the player from entering if the coach wants to prevent the T.

Either way, whether he's beckoned or not doesn't really matter here. If I beckon him, and the coach pulls him back before he enters, then my latitude isn't even necessary.

I'm may not be picturing this right. You beckon the sub. He enters. Somebody tells the coach this player is not in the book. I think it's too late at this point to pull him back.