More Block/PC plays from CA...3 of them

[JetMetFan]

I'm beginning to like these Desert Valley folks. Thoughts on the plays?

[Raymond]

Play #1 is a charge that should have been called.

Play #2 correctly no-called.

Play #3 correctly called a PC.

[JugglingReferee]

I've got a charge, no call, and a PC.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by badnewsref

play #1 is a charge that should have been called.

Play #2 correctly no-called.

Play #3 correctly called a pc.

+1

[Tio]

I give them credit for trying to get better by watching plays & putting their mistakes up for scrutiny (including by this peanut gallery).

Second, I think we need to look at more symptomatic issues versus simple call validation. If you look at the lead positioning and what the officials are refereeing (based on their head position), and what they should have been refereeing with what is happening in the game, you can see why they struggled covering the plays.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Tio

I give them credit for trying to get better by watching plays & putting their mistakes up for scrutiny (including by this peanut gallery).

Second, I think we need to look at more symptomatic issues versus simple call validation. If you look at the lead positioning and what the officials are refereeing (based on their head position), and what they should have been refereeing with what is happening in the game, you can see why they struggled covering the plays.

Agreed. I'm glad videos of my games aren't here.

In the first one, it looks like C is late getting down, and he turns his head with the pass. L is looking across, and also turns. IT's the C's call, though.

[maven]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

In the first one, it looks like C is late getting down, and he turns his head with the pass. L is looking across, and also turns. IT's the C's call, though.

Given the other vids from this association, I thought this might be 2-man. But I also saw both turn to watch the ball.

The L seems to process the crash for a second: perhaps he passed on it because his partner did. I'm not sure his partner saw it.

Pre-gaming the pass-and-crash is key.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

In the first one, it looks like C is late getting down, and he turns his head with the pass. L is looking across, and also turns. IT's the C's call, though.

I noticed that. While the offensive player is still airborne, it doesn't appear there are any eyes on him and the defender.

Not having three man experience, I understand that the lead in this case is officiating off ball in his PCA but should he have some awareness of the offensive player and potentially reach across and have a whistle there if the C doesn't?

Thanks for posting these JetMetFan, I always need more basketball video to break down.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Welpe

I noticed that. While the shooter is still airborne, it doesn't appear there are any eyes on him and the defender.

Not having three man experience, I understand that the lead in this case is officiating off ball in his PCA but should he have some awareness of the shooter and potentially reach across and have a whistle there if the C doesn't?

Thanks for posting these JetMetFan, I always need more basketball video to break down.

Yes, there's not much else happening in L's primary (we don't see enough prior to the play to know what else happened -- late rotation, secondary break, etc.). L could have at least "pinched the paint".

[Tio]

Pregame contract should include that we commit as a crew to have a foul on all block charge plays with 2-players on the floor.

Frankly, in play #1, I am not sure what the lead is refereeing. THE play on the court is the drive to the rim. Now, I am not an expert in 2-man mechanics, but I would think he has responsibility on the secondary defender, then on rebounding action. Either way, he shouldn't be blind to the drive refereeing action on the 3-point arc.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Tio

Pregame contract should include that we commit as a crew to have a foul on all block charge plays with 2-players on the floor.

Good guideline, but not a committment.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Yes, there's not much else happening in L's primary (we don't see enough prior to the play to know what else happened -- late rotation, secondary break, etc.). L could have at least "pinched the paint".

Thanks. What do you mean by pinching the paint? I understood that to be closing down closer to the nearest lane line, which it seems he's already there.

I watched again and noticed the L was watching the play. Not sure why he held his whistle there.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by Tio

Pregame contract should include that we commit as a crew to have a foul on all block charge plays with 2-players on the floor.

I really dislike this statement and disagree when it is brought up in pre-games.

There are times when 2 players end up on the floor and neither has done anything illegal. We should not be calling a foul just because of this.

If we referee the defense and see the entire play then we should be able to have high accuracy on block/charges and not just have a whistle because it "has to be something."

A better phrase IMO is, "if we have bodies on the floor we should either have a whistle or be able to explain how they got there."

[Tio]

Point taken... I am not one for dealing in absolutes normally (unless mandated by the rules: see the NCAA absolutes from 2-3 years ago).

On a block/charge play if you have 2 guys on the floor, it is HIGHLY likely that there is a foul. Not to mention the safety hazard that is created with bodies on the floor in the paint.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by Tio

Point taken... I am not one for dealing in absolutes normally (unless mandated by the rules: see the NCAA absolutes from 2-3 years ago).

On a block/charge play if you have 2 guys on the floor, it is HIGHLY likely that there is a foul. Not to mention the safety hazard that is created with bodies on the floor in the paint.

I agree.

I just dont like the absolute because I have seen officials use it to put whistles in the game that shouldnt be there or use it as an excuse to basically guess on a block/charge instead of actually refereeing the play.

Maybe its a good guideline for some younger officials who may pass too much on these plays b/c they don't know what to call. But I still think teaching them to referee the defense will work better for them.

I also agree that in play #1 here, the L is basically following the ball and not refereeing his PCA.