refuses to play with 5

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

What killed the ball?

Who knows? A travel...a timeout being granted...a kicked ball...lots of possibilities there.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Who knows? A travel...a timeout being granted...a kicked ball...lots of possibilities there.

Huh? We were talking about fighting during a live ball - you asserted that if it's fighting then it MUST be a dead ball. So what killed the ball when someone starts fighting during a live ball (or did I misread you and you mean if someone starts fighting during a live ball, it's not really fighting?)

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Huh? We were talking about fighting during a live ball - you asserted that if it's fighting then it MUST be a dead ball. So what killed the ball when someone starts fighting during a live ball (or did I misread you and you mean if someone starts fighting during a live ball, it's not really fighting?)

You misread me...and I didn't mean either of the things you thought.

All I am saying is that if a fight takes place during a live ball, by definition it is not a flagrant T...it is a flagrant personal. If the fight takes place during a dead ball, then it is a flagrant T.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

You misread me...and I didn't mean either of the things you thought.

All I am saying is that if a fight takes place during a live ball, by definition it is not a flagrant T...it is a flagrant personal. If the fight takes place during a dead ball, then it is a flagrant T.

4-18: Fighting is a flagrant act and can occur when the ball is dead or live.

4-18-1: .............regardless of whether contact is made.

10-3-8 Player Technical: A player shall not be charged with fighting.

Fighting is a technical foul. Fighting is fighting whether the ball is dead or live and whether contact occurs or not.
Straight out of the book.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by just another ref

4-18: Fighting is a flagrant act and can occur when the ball is dead or live.

4-18-1: .............regardless of whether contact is made.

10-3-8 Player Technical: A player shall not be charged with fighting.

Fighting is a technical foul. Fighting is fighting whether the ball is dead or live and whether contact occurs or not.
Straight out of the book.

4-19-4 is straight out of the book also...clearly says a flagrant T occurs during a dead ball.

[jeremy341a]

A1 throws a punch at B1 and you hit your whistle. Immediately after your whistle B1 throws a punch back. Will can all agree that both players are disqualified. However are we to believe that A1 is charged with a flagrant foul, which means B1's sub must shoot the freethrows but then B1 is charged with a flagrant technical which means any memeber of team A, other than those that are dq'ed, can shoot the technical free throws. This wouldn't be a double foul as one is personal and one is technical.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by jeremy341a

A1 throws a punch at B1 and you hit your whistle. Immediately after your whistle B1 throws a punch back. Will can all agree that both players are disqualified. However are we to believe that A1 is charged with a flagrant foul, which means B1's sub must shoot the freethrows but then B1 is charged with a flagrant technical which means any memeber of team A, other than those that are dq'ed, can shoot the technical free throws. This wouldn't be a double foul as one is personal and one is technical.

When I had this scenario (not a punch, either, but a flagrant live-ball bear hug followed by retaliation), I was informed by my state (not in the mountain time zone) that the two fouls should have been considered a double foul.
Now, this has been a few years, and I have moved to another state. I am not sure that state would want the same ruling now, nor am I sure my current state would want that ruling.

That is, however, the way I'd be inclined to rule.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

You misread me...and I didn't mean either of the things you thought.

All I am saying is that if a fight takes place during a live ball, by definition it is not a flagrant T...it is a flagrant personal. If the fight takes place during a dead ball, then it is a flagrant T.

Then you ARE saying what I thought. And you're wrong. Fighting, live or dead ball, is a T. Period.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Then you ARE saying what I thought. And you're wrong. Fighting, live or dead ball, is a T. Period.

Thanks.

But I am not.

10-3-8 says fighting is a flagrant act. The definition of a technical says it is live ball non-contact, or dead ball contact. Therefore, a fight during a live ball is not a flagrant Technical as it not a dead ball situation. It is a flagrant personal.

Unless of course you can use the rules to show me that I am wrong instead of "just because you say so".

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

10-3-8 says fighting is a flagrant act.

Right. And 10-3 deals entirely with player technicals and does not deal with personal fouls.

At all.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Right. And 10-3 deals entirely with player technicals and does not deal with personal fouls.

At all.

Because fighting CAN be a Technical...

Ok. Time to move on.

How bout those mechanics from that Desert Valley guy?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Thanks.

But I am not.

10-3-8 says fighting is a flagrant act. The definition of a technical says it is live ball non-contact, or dead ball contact. Therefore, a fight during a live ball is not a flagrant Technical as it not a dead ball situation. It is a flagrant personal.

Unless of course you can use the rules to show me that I am wrong instead of "just because you say so".

Goodness. People are being intentionally obtuse today. First I have someone tell me that no where in the rules does it say a batter is out when they hit an infield fly - when the rule they were talking about simply says, "The batter is out when they hit an infield fly."

Now you tell me fighting cannot be a live ball act, when 4-18 says, quite plainly: Fighting is a flagrant act and can occur when the ball is dead or live.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Goodness. People are being intentionally obtuse today. First I have someone tell me that no where in the rules does it say a batter is out when they hit an infield fly - when the rule they were talking about simply says, "The batter is out when they hit an infield fly."

Now you tell me fighting cannot be a live ball act, when 4-18 says, quite plainly: Fighting is a flagrant act and can occur when the ball is dead or live.

Someone is certainly being obtuse here...

I will go slowly for you. I never said fighting can not be a live ball act. I did say that if a fight occurs during a live ball, it is not a flagrant technical, but a flagrant personal.For reasons already stated.