Offensive foul / basket counts?

[ODog]

If your description is accurate, sounds like you got jobbed, Coach. Mind you, this is all if we're dealing with a HS game, and I think the assumption on this board is that's the case unless explicitly laid out otherwise.

For the record, there are no "offensive" fouls. There are player-control fouls and team-control fouls.

No basket can be scored on a player-control foul. In this case, the sequence of events relative to whistle and release are irrelevant. The ball is dead the minute the foul is committed and no basket can be scored regardless of where the ball was (out, in, through the basket). An airborne shooter (by definition, someone who has already released his shot) can still commit a player-control foul until he returns to the floor. So, provided V1 was an airborne shooter, you got hosed.

But if V1 committed this foul after releasing the ball AND after returning to the floor (if he ever left it to begin with), then you're SOL. But then it wouldn't be a PC or TC foul.

Since you say O1 called and gave the sign for an "offensive foul" (whatever you consider that to be), that takes the scenario in the preceding sentence off the table.

So yes, there are (unlikely) variables where perhaps this was administered properly, but from the initial description, I'm leaning (heavily) in your favor.

[Adam]

The official may have signaled pc because it was the shooter, but it's still possible that he committed the foul after releasing the try and after returning to the floor. That isn't off the table just because of a signal.

[ram]

Jr high game. Thanks for the correct terminology. The signal was for player control foul (just looked it up).

[Camron Rust]

As Adam mentioned, did the foul occur after the shot release AND after the shooter returned to the floor (or never jumped)? If so, that would not be considered a player control foul and the shot would count.

[JRutledge]

The fact this was a JH game tells me any of these situations are possible.

Peace

[maven]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

As Adam mentioned, did the foul occur after the shot release AND after the shooter returned to the floor (or never jumped)? If so, that would not be considered a player control foul and the shot would count.

Just so ram understands the ruling here:

1. If the shooter is still airborne after release of the try and crashes the defender, then by (NFHS) rule the foul is a player control foul, and the basket (if made) should be canceled.

2. Once the shooter has returned to the floor (with a foot) he is no longer an airborne shooter. At that point, his crashing the defender, while still a foul, is not a player control foul. Since it occurs during a try, when there is no team control either, it is not a team control (offensive) foul. Thus, if the try is successful it will count, and the foul is treated as a common foul, just as if a non-shooter had committed a rebounding foul.

As others have mentioned, NCAAM treats #1 like #2, provided the foul occurs after release of the try. All we know for sure is that the official counted the bucket: if #2 happened, he got it right. If #1 happened, maybe he was applying the NCAAM rule, or maybe he just blew it.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by ram

Jr high game. Thanks for the correct terminology. The signal was for player control foul (just looked it up).

It's entirely possible that you had "newer" referees at a JH game, and that one of them was confused by the correct rule and used the NCAAM's rule on the play. It probably wasn't the first time a rule was misapplied at one of your games, and it probably won't be the last.

[justacoach]

Hello Ram: Welcome to the board. Congrats on your detective work for looking up the proper signal and educating yourself. You should consider switching to officiating and away from 'the dark side'.

[letemplay]

Originally Posted by justacoach

Hello Ram: Welcome to the board. Congrats on your detective work for looking up the proper signal and educating yourself. You should consider switching to officiating and away from 'the dark side'.

Sorry, but I cannot see anyone with any kind of level of basketball experience having to "look up" a player control signal

[justacoach]

Originally Posted by letemplay

Sorry, but I cannot see anyone with any kind of level of basketball experience having to "look up" a player control signal

So you wanna bust my chops for doing a little gratuitous recruiting??
Wish more of our officiating brethren would exercise the same degree of inquisitiveness...

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by letemplay

Sorry, but I cannot see anyone with any kind of level of basketball experience having to "look up" a player control signal

Sorta on par with officials on any level who say they don't have access to the rule book.

This coach is way ahead on that measure.

[APG]

Originally Posted by letemplay

Sorry, but I cannot see anyone with any kind of level of basketball experience having to "look up" a player control signal

Most people don't call offensive fouls player control fouls...hence that's probably why he had to look it up.

[ram]

I came to this forum looking for an answer to an officiating question / rule interpretation. Most replies were professional and informative. And thank you to all. I have poked around and learned a lot of nuances of officiating that I was unaware of. I am sure my visit here will make me a better coach. If nothing else, maybe I’ll be less critical of officials.

The following comment, though, I find rude and condescending.

Originally Posted by letemplay

Sorry, but I cannot see anyone with any kind of level of basketball experience having to "look up" a player control signal

I certainly would never imply someone was stupid if they came on to an electrical forum, for example, with a legit question and didn’t know that the cover of their “electrical panel” is actually called a “dead front” or that the “electrical panel” is actually a “service equipment enclosure”. Those things you plug your TV, computer, etc into? “receptacles”, not “outlets”. Especially if it was a new visitor to the forum.

APG is exactly right. I have seen the signal plenty, but have always known that signal as an “offensive” foul. (which I now know is incorrect terminology) and thus looked up "player control foul" to be sure that what I saw and what was posted here were indeed one and the same. In 6 years of coaching basketball, I have never heard anyone (official, coach, player, scorer) say “player control foul”.

Maybe I should watch more hoops on TV. I’m sure the announcers, who watch basketball for a living, certainly would use the proper terminology. Yes, yes… I’m certain that this type of on-air exchange occurs frequently.

Bob: That’s the 5th charge Johnny Setmafeet has taken!

Bill: Ya know, Bob, he’s really learned how to get in position to get a player control foul called. Randy Runyaover has commited 3 player control fouls himself. Those player control fouls are really making him have to play tentative on defense.

Bob: Yes, Bill, those player control fouls are also really affecting their ability to get into an offensive rythym.

letemplay, perhaps you should come to grips with the fact that most of us weren’t born with your extensive wisdom and actually have to educate ourselves from time to time. You also may want to be wary of asking any medical questions until you are sure of what the phalanges of the digitus medius are for.

Originally Posted by justacoach

Bear in mind the OP is a JH coach and came here with a legit question, not a rant......
RIF

Until now. Sorry.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by justacoach

You should consider switching to officiating and away from 'the dark side'.

Saw a bumper sticker:

"COME OVER TO THE DARK SIDE. WE HAVE COOKIES."

[jTheUmp]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

It's entirely possible that you had "newer" referees at a JH game, and that one of them was confused by the correct rule and used the NCAAM's rule on the play. It probably wasn't the first time a rule was misapplied at one of your games, and it probably won't be the last.

I know I made this very mistake my first year during a 7th or 8th grade game at least twice. I know better now, of course, but JH games are the training ground for newer officials and players alike, so mistakes like this are bound to happen.

Hopefully after your game both of the officials dug into the rule book to verify that their ruling was "correct" and discovered the truth.