Communication with partner

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by OKREF

So shooter intends to shoot, gets fouled and can't shoot, whistle(clearly thinking it is a shot), then a pass. Why is this not a shooting foul?

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I just explained why in the post you quoted.

And we are judging what the player intending to do. We don't "know" what he intended to do.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Who said it was impossible? What example was given where it was impossible to get the shot off?

I did.

What about this. Last second shot, player rises to shoot, fouled hard enough to not be able to shoot. Whistle. Ball never leaves his hand. Someone said earlier that to get two shots the ball needs to leave the hands.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by OKREF

I did.

What about this. Last second shot, player rises to shoot, fouled hard enough to not be able to shoot. Whistle. Ball never leaves his hand. Someone said earlier that to get two shots the ball needs to leave the hands.

The rule itself tells us this is not the case.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by OKREF

I did.

What about this. Last second shot, player rises to shoot, fouled hard enough to not be able to shoot. Whistle. Ball never leaves his hand. Someone said earlier that to get two shots the ball needs to leave the hands.

Who said that? I have been following this conversation pretty closely and I have yet to remember reading someone saying what you just suggested. It should not be hard to quote if someone actually made that claim.

Peace

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Is it very wrong because you disagree with it?

Look, if a player wants me to think they are shooting, then shoot the ball. If a player wants me to think they are passing, then pass the ball. Not all players that gather and jump in the air are shooting. Otherwise if a player gathers and gets the ball knocked out his hands or knocked the the floor whether they release the ball to shoot or pass, they are getting shots from me. After all this is all about judgment anyway. There is ultimately nothing right or wrong either way. I am just not rewarding a player that is not smart enough to know to not pass the ball if you want the total benefit of the foul.

Peace

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Who said that? I have been following this conversation pretty closely and I have yet to remember reading someone saying what you just suggested. It should not be hard to quote if someone actually made that claim.



Peace

You did. Shoot the ball means leaving the hands to me.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by OKREF

You did. Shoot the ball means leaving the hands to me.

You kind of picked and choosed what you wanted out of his post. "Pass the ball" also means leaving the hands. His comparison was strictly between shooting or passing the ball. Not holding the ball:

"Look, if a player wants me to think they are shooting, then shoot the ball. If a player wants me to think they are passing, then pass the ball. Not all players that gather and jump in the air are shooting. Otherwise if a player gathers and gets the ball knocked out his hands or knocked the the floor whether they release the ball to shoot or pass, they are getting shots from me.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Is it very wrong because you disagree with it?

Look, if a player wants me to think they are shooting, then shoot the ball. If a player wants me to think they are passing, then pass the ball. Not all players that gather and jump in the air are shooting. Otherwise if a player gathers and gets the ball knocked out his hands or knocked the the floor whether they release the ball to shoot or pass, they are getting shots from me. After all this is all about judgment anyway. There is ultimately nothing right or wrong either way. I am just not rewarding a player that is not smart enough to know to not pass the ball if you want the total benefit of the foul.

Peace

Originally Posted by JRutledge

He takes away the doubt when he passes the ball. If the ball was lost or there was some real question as to what took place or what they were going to do (e.g. fumbling the ball after contact) then I would award shots. It should not be hard to understand. If the player wants everyone to know what they were doing, then shoot the darn ball. Why is that hard to understand?

Peace

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

You kind of picked and choosed what you wanted out of his post. "Pass the ball" also means leaving the hands. His comparison was strictly between shooting or passing the ball. Not holding the ball:

"Look, if a player wants me to think they are shooting, then shoot the ball. If a player wants me to think they are passing, then pass the ball. Not all players that gather and jump in the air are shooting. Otherwise if a player gathers and gets the ball knocked out his hands or knocked the the floor whether they release the ball to shoot or pass, they are getting shots from me.

Well it was said twice in two different situations.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Well it was said twice in two different situations.

"Passing the ball" means leaving the players hand but you are ignoring that all together.

I don't see a single phrase or sentence in the posts you quoted that said the ball must "leave a player's hands" in order for it to be a shooting foul.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

"Passing the ball" means leaving the players hand but you are ignoring that all together.

I don't see a single phrase or sentence in the posts you quoted that said the ball must "leave a player's hands" in order for it to be a shooting foul.

Ok, maybe I am misinterpretating what was written. My apologies.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by OKREF

You did. Shoot the ball means leaving the hands to me.

No it does not. The act of shooting beings long before the release of the ball (by rule that some of you love to keep talking about) Sorry, nice try. I have awarded many shooting fouls without a ball being released. Got crap for them just about every time.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by OKREF

I did.

What about this. Last second shot, player rises to shoot, fouled hard enough to not be able to shoot. Whistle. Ball never leaves his hand. Someone said earlier that to get two shots the ball needs to leave the hands.

You would need to show me that post because that's not something I've ever heard as an official.

In fact I'm one of those officials who hates when I have partners who rule fouls "on the floor" when A1 clearly ended their dribble and started their habitual shooting motion. That failure to award 2 shots is FAR more prevalent then what is being talked about in this thread.

[APG]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

You would need to show me that post because that's not something I've ever heard as an official.

In fact I'm one of those officials who hates when I have partners who rule fouls "on the floor" when A1 clearly ended their dribble and started their habitual shooting motion. That failure to award 2 shots is FAR more prevalent then what is being talked about in this thread.

But this isn't the NBA...there's no continuation!

[Pantherdreams]

This whole thing is becoming much more complicated then it needs to be. I think if you judged the player to be shooting the ball when they were fouled the rule book supports you sending the player to the line. If you are not sure what they were doing in the air/ on the ground with the ball when they were fouled you make the best judgement you can based on whatever information you can before, during and even after the whistle.

Here's the hard sell for me on giving player two shots:

Player jumps up to shoot and is fouled by primary defender while shooting. Gets two shots.

Player jumps up to shoot and is not fouled by primary defender while shooting. Gets his shot off. No call.

Player jumps up to shoot and is not fouled by primary defender, see's secondary shot blocker and passes the ball. Play on no call.

Player jump up to shoot and is fouled by primary defender, see's the secondary shot blocker and passes the ball. Foul called. Two shots?!?

I don't think this can be automatic and must depend on when the foul was called and what the officials see/judge. Can't always be a shooting foul, can't always be a non-shooting foul. More information here to try to make the right call can't hurt but thats why its a judgement call.