Purdue v. Michigan Backcourt violation

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I can see where bob is coming from.

PC, TC, and the dribble all start at the same time since there was never a catch so he is considering that the entire play is during a a dribble and subject to the 3-points rule. I can buy that as there really isn't anything to say that there any one is considered to have happened first.

That's what I meant

Originally Posted by just another ref

Even if the 3 point rule did apply, this would still be a violation. All 3 points must cross the line before location changes. They did in this case. In no case is it necessary that all 3 points are in the place of origin.

We're talking now about a play different from the video.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

We're talking now about a play different from the video.

I got that. But in the video when does player control start? I had this exact play earlier this year on a throw-in. It made my whistle a tick late as I asked myself whether the original touch at the top of the dribble was the start of player control. I said it was, much like this video. The touch was in the frontcourt, the ball bounced in the backcourt. Violation.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I got that. But in the video when does player control start? I had this exact play earlier this year on a throw-in. It made my whistle a tick late as I asked myself whether the original touch at the top of the dribble was the start of player control. I said it was, much like this video. The touch was in the frontcourt, the ball bounced in the backcourt. Violation.

I'm very confused. In the video it doesn't matter wehn PC starts becasue TC was never lost. So when the Michigan player was last to touch / first to touch, it was a violation.

I think I must be missing something about the question.

Edit: Maybe you are asking, suppose the same play happens during a throw-in, instead of during "playing action". In that case, I'd rule the same as in the "rebound question" asked in #19 and answered in #20 and #21

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I'm very confused. In the video it doesn't matter wehn PC starts becasue TC was never lost. So when the Michigan player was last to touch / first to touch, it was a violation.

I think I must be missing something about the question.

When you guys tweaked the situation to being after a rebound. When does TC/PC start? I don't see why it doesn't start with the touch.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by just another ref

When you guys tweaked the situation to being after a rebound. When does TC/PC start? I don't see why it doesn't start with the touch.

This was exactly my question.

Bob, you said, "The first dribble the ball hit in the BC, so the three-points rule applies and A1 is in the BC."

What difference does that make? If the dribble began when the ball was batted in the FC and stroke the floor in the BC, do we not have over/back when the dribble is again touched?

That's what's confusing JAR and me.

[JRutledge]

All the contact with the ball was in the front court. The ball touched the back court on after the first dribble attempt.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

All the contact with the ball was in the front court. The ball touched the back court on after the first dribble attempt.

Peace

All the contact? We know the ball first touches in backcourt. What are you trying to say?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

All the contact? We know the ball first touches in backcourt. What are you trying to say?

I am talking about the contact with the ball or dribble that put the ball in the backcourt. The Michigan player put the ball in the backcourt, nothing else IMO.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

This was exactly my question.

Bob, you said, "The first dribble the ball hit in the BC, so the three-points rule applies and A1 is in the BC."

What difference does that make? If the dribble began when the ball was batted in the FC and stroke the floor in the BC, do we not have over/back when the dribble is again touched?

That's what's confusing JAR and me.

That's why I asked the question. Don't know that I agree in letting a player start his dribble in the front court with the bounce occurring in the backcourt.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

This was exactly my question.

Bob, you said, "The first dribble the ball hit in the BC, so the three-points rule applies and A1 is in the BC."

What difference does that make? If the dribble began when the ball was batted in the FC and stroke the floor in the BC, do we not have over/back when the dribble is again touched?

That's what's confusing JAR and me.

For a rebound/throwin....

Is the start of a dribble considered during a dribble. I was leaning towards it not being a violation but I think I'm changing my mind.

Consider the wording of the 3-points clause for backcourt violations where it mentions "during a dribble from backcourt to frontcourt". To me, that implies that the dribble was already underway in the backcourt. In this case, it is not. So I believe PC and TC have begun on the push towards the floor giving the ball frontcourt status and the and the exception doesn't apply since it is not a dribble from backcourt to frontcourt.