Fouled Out Substitution During Free Throw

[Treeguy]

This was in the Detroit Free Press today.

The Mustangs were ahead, 57-52, with 35 seconds left in overtime when Marian's Kamry Peake was fouled, went to the free-throw line and sank the first of two free throws.

However, Divine Child coach Mary Laney got the attention of an official and said the substitute for her player who had fouled out had not been brought into the game when Peake made the free throw.

The official explained to Marian coach Mary Cicerone that he had to take the point off the scoreboard and admit the substitute, then shoot the free throws.

There was just one problem with that: The sub had entered the game.

"He said the other official blew it because he didn't let her in the game," Cicerone said. "I said: 'But she was in the game, she was standing right here.' Of course, I said it a little more aggressive than that."

For emphasis, Cicerone stomped her right foot on the spot the substitute and the official were standing during the free throw. And that is when an official from across the court hit Cicerone with a technical foul.

"You're really going to give me a technical for your mistake?" Cicerone asked. "He said: 'Yes, I am.' He was embarrassed because he screwed up."

Comments?

[APG]

Free throw counts, bring the replacement player, resume.

[bob jenkins]

Even though the coach is right, or has the right to ask / "complain", the coach still has to do so in the correct manner.

[MD Longhorn]

"No sir, the technical is for the way you handled it, whether we were right or wrong about the call is irrelevant."

[Raymond]

When an official incompetently wipes points off the scoreboard and on top of that wipes points off for something that didn't happen that crew better be prepared to allow a coach to stomp his/her foot.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

When an official incompetently wipes points off the scoreboard and on top of that wipes points off for something that didn't happen that crew better be prepared to allow a coach to stomp his/her foot.

All well and good if the official knows they're screwing up. Of course, if they knew that, they wouldn't be wiping the points off anyway.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

When an official incompetently wipes points off the scoreboard and on top of that wipes points off for something that didn't happen that crew better be prepared to allow a coach to stomp his/her foot.

Agreed, agreed and agreed! I fully realize that referees are going to make mistakes from time to time as we are human. At the same time, when we do make a mistake, we need to be somewhat sympathetic to those we have wronged...IMHO.....

[dsqrddgd909]

Originally from that area. My guess is this game was worked by a very experienced crew. Just goes to show you have to be on your toes.

"4.14.1 SITUATION C:

A1 is fouled by B2 and is awarded two free throws. The foul is B2's fifth foul. The new trail official reports the fifth foul to Team B's coach. Before a substitute is made, the lead official incorrectly permits A1 to attempt the first free throw. The officials realize the error and huddle to discuss the situation.

RULING: The result of the first attempt shall stand. Team B's head coach shall be notified of B2's disqualification. Once B2 has been replaced, A1 shall attempt the second free throw.

COMMENT: This is an official's error and not a correctable error situation according to Rule 2, Section 10. (6-1-2c; 10-5-2; 2-8-3)"

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Treeguy

This was in the Detroit Free Press today.

The Mustangs were ahead, 57-52, with 35 seconds left in overtime when Marian's Kamry Peake was fouled, went to the free-throw line and sank the first of two free throws.

However, Divine Child coach Mary Laney got the attention of an official and said the substitute for her player who had fouled out had not been brought into the game when Peake made the free throw.

The official explained to Marian coach Mary Cicerone that he had to take the point off the scoreboard and admit the substitute, then shoot the free throws.

There was just one problem with that: The sub had entered the game.

"He said the other official blew it because he didn't let her in the game," Cicerone said. "I said: 'But she was in the game, she was standing right here.' Of course, I said it a little more aggressive than that."

For emphasis, Cicerone stomped her right foot on the spot the substitute and the official were standing during the free throw. And that is when an official from across the court hit Cicerone with a technical foul.

"You're really going to give me a technical for your mistake?" Cicerone asked. "He said: 'Yes, I am.' He was embarrassed because he screwed up."

Comments?

It is unclear from the article whether anyone realized that taking the point off the board was a mistake or not.

[Stat-Man]

Originally Posted by Treeguy

This was in the Detroit Free Press today.

The Mustangs were ahead, 57-52, with 35 seconds left in overtime when Marian's Kamry Peake was fouled, went to the free-throw line and sank the first of two free throws.

However, Divine Child coach Mary Laney got the attention of an official and said the substitute for her player who had fouled out had not been brought into the game when Peake made the free throw.

The official explained to Marian coach Mary Cicerone that he had to take the point off the scoreboard and admit the substitute, then shoot the free throws.

There was just one problem with that: The sub had entered the game.

"He said the other official blew it because he didn't let her in the game," Cicerone said. "I said: 'But she was in the game, she was standing right here.' Of course, I said it a little more aggressive than that."

For emphasis, Cicerone stomped her right foot on the spot the substitute and the official were standing during the free throw. And that is when an official from across the court hit Cicerone with a technical foul.

"You're really going to give me a technical for your mistake?" Cicerone asked. "He said: 'Yes, I am.' He was embarrassed because he screwed up."

Comments?

The only thing I can think of was that the official called the T because he thought the coach was trying to show up the official(s)? If a coach leaves the box to walk to where the sub allegedly was waiting and stomps her foot hard for extra emphasis, I can see where that may be a problem. However, if the coach hadn't been a problem up to that point, I'm thinking some preventative officiating may have been better.

The first free throw should definitely have stood. I believe I read later in that article that he shooter ended up splitting the new pair of free throws and the point may have never been recorded/awarded. If so, that only makes a bad situation worse.

Ironically enough, my local association discussed free throw administration and procedures at our meeting this month. According to our trainer, it was one of the areas of concern he received recent feedback about. I'm curious if these officials are part of my association and, if so, if they attended the meeting.

[ODog]

I thought I posted this earlier, but I don't see it anywhere.

My takeaway from this is -- How did it happen?

Foul, we're shooting two. At some point, a substitute (the one in question) enters the game, but since we're shooting two, the only way A6 would've made it onto the floor was if the officials were properly notified it was A1's fifth foul, they notifed Coach A and allowed A6 to enter before the first FT. Right?

Did A6 just walk in off the bench and A1 leave the court in disgust/disappointment w/o any of the above actually taking place?

Not that I'd expect the Free Press to mention all this, since it's not of interest to the average reader, but I wish we knew more about the administration of all this.

If the administering official initiated the first FT w/o regard to any of this, when/how did A6 materialize on the floor?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by ODog

Did A6 just walk in off the bench and A1 leave the court in disgust/disappointment w/o any of the above actually taking place?

This happens a lot, if you let it. Sometimes before you even know it.

Players and coaches, some of whom are very respectful of the substitution process, think it all goes out the window when a player fouls out.

[RSturgell]

Originally Posted by ODog

Did A6 just walk in off the bench and A1 leave the court in disgust/disappointment w/o any of the above actually taking place?

I had something similiar happen to me. Boys JV, (2) man crew (long story). Visitor team getting pounded 4 min. left. I am lead. Call B1 for block he and coach are both upset. B1's 5th foul. I do not get told this. As I am moving to table keeping eye on players Visiting coach calls all players over to bench. A1 is at free throw line while I advise table of foul. Partner is holding ball. I had already T'd V coach up earlier for ABS. I advise coach need players to line up. He states "I get 30 seconds, know the rule." I look at table and they ask if they should start the clock. I say yes. When coach made his statement I knew what I had missed. I gave him some rope but could have rang him up again. Still not sure how I missed B1 had 5 fouls or when sub came in.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by RSturgell

I had something similiar happen to me. Boys JV, (2) man crew (long story). Visitor team getting pounded 4 min. left. I am lead. Call B1 for block he and coach are both upset. B1's 5th foul. I do not get told this. As I am moving to table keeping eye on players Visiting coach calls all players over to bench. A1 is at free throw line while I advise table of foul. Partner is holding ball. I had already T'd V coach up earlier for ABS. I advise coach need players to line up. He states "I get 30 seconds, know the rule." I look at table and they ask if they should start the clock. I say yes. When coach made his statement I knew what I had missed. I gave him some rope but could have rang him up again. Still not sure how I missed B1 had 5 fouls or when sub came in.

1) It's 20 seconds

2) If the sub was already in, then there's no extra time.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by RSturgell

I advise coach need players to line up. He states "I get 30 seconds, know the rule."

My old interpreter was a truly good guy on and off the court. He was not a hot head and have very little ego on the court. He'd never go out of his way to tell you about a big game that he did, although he did plenty of them. Anyway, he used to tell a story in which a coach had been difficult all night. He and his partner had tried to work with him, but he'd just been a jerk.

At one point, one of his player's fouls out. They inform the coach, and start the 30 seconds (yes, it was still 30 seconds back then). After the warning horn, my partner says, "We're gonna need a sub, Coach."

As you might guess, the coach snaps "I get my 30 seconds!"

To which, my interpreter replied simply, "Don't take 31. . ."