The 3-person battle continues

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by just another ref

For the guys who advocate a different approach with a two man crew, setting certain screens in potentially dead areas, what is it that you're doing that you don't want the officials to see?

I don't think anyone is advocating it...but like tome gun said, there are dead spots in two man coverage and coaches take advantage of that knowledge.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

I don't think anyone is advocating it...but like tome gun said, there are dead spots in two man coverage and coaches take advantage of that knowledge.

There are dead spots in the paint when large numbers of bodies are packed in there at times, so let's go nuts when that happens, guys.

I find the whole concept dirty.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

I don't think anyone is advocating it...but like tome gun said, there are dead spots in two man coverage and coaches take advantage of that knowledge.

It's not only specific spots, it's general coverage.

If all fouls were seen with 3 officials, then maybe only 2/3 of the fouls are seen with 2 officials. So, "play more agressive" and you'll be able to commit 7 fouls before you get called for 5.

(The math and logic isn't quite right, of course, but the general concept is.0

[billyu2]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

There really is no valid reason for these schools to continue fighting against going three-person...all of the studies done (NBA, NCAA, various State Associations) have shown that three-person crews cut down on the rough play and clean the game up, making it more fun for the fans to watch. The reason thrown around the most often is cost, but even that does not fly as states that have gone to 3-person crews have shown that the cost increases are just not as severe as these people claim.

As for the coaches being against it...they just don't want to have their star players picking up fouls that the third set of eyes would be catching. It means they would have to teach proper defense, proper screens, etc., etc...again, a stupid and selfish reason.
My Tuesday morning rant with Rich.

We've used 3 person here in Ohio for BV and GV regular season and tournament games for many years now; but I remember in the beginning the most common remark against it by the coaches was "it's hard enough to get TWO good officials let alone THREE." Now, over the last dozen years or so, I don't think I've ever heard a coach or group of coaches comment that they would rather go back to 2. (they may be thinking it-esp. if I'm one of the 3) Wish all of you who want to get 3 person in your state/conference good luck.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by billyu2

...Now, over the last dozen years or so, I don't think I've ever heard a coach or group of coaches comment that they would rather go back to 2. (they may be thinking it...

The dean of high school coaches in our area, who is also an AD as well as a state-tourney level football official himself, commented to me regarding 3-man recently:
"3-man is not going to go away."
I further probed for what seemed to be a negative opinion on 3-man vs. 2. What he didn't like about 3-man he summarized in two words: "More Whistles."
His point was not the occasional double whistle by good crews reacting to plays on the border of their PCA's, rather than he too often gets saddled with 3 guys who, as ballwatchers all, call violations and fouls at the same time. Triple whistles. That tells him that he, as an AD, was better off just having two ballwatchers cuz it's cheaper than having three.
Given the respected status of this veteran coach, I accepted this as somewhat a valid commentary on the state of 3-man officiating in our area and as an emphasis to continue in our scrimmages and rules meetings.
Some have simply gotta be doing a better job at PCA coverage.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Freddy

The dean of high school coaches in our area, who is also an AD as well as a state-tourney level football official himself, commented to me regarding 3-man recently:
"3-man is not going to go away."
I further probed for what seemed to be a negative opinion on 3-man vs. 2. What he didn't like about 3-man he summarized in two words: "More Whistles."
His point was not the occasional double whistle by good crews reacting to plays on the border of their PCA's, rather than he too often gets saddled with 3 guys who, as ballwatchers all, call violations and fouls at the same time. Triple whistles. That tells him that he, as an AD, was better off just having two ballwatchers cuz it's cheaper than having three.
Given the respected status of this veteran coach, I accepted this as somewhat a valid commentary on the state of 3-man officiating in our area and as an emphasis to continue in our scrimmages and rules meetings.
Some have simply gotta be doing a better job at PCA coverage.

It's a vicious circle.

People who don't work 3-person more than the occasional summer camp aren't going to feel comfortable. People who aren't comfortable are going to make mistakes, and coaches who see those mistakes argue they'd be better off with 2. The coach you talked to is right. If we don't have a third to get the off-ball stuff missed with 2 officials, why have a third?

What I don't see in this area are officials taking a third to JV or lower class games, splitting checks, and WORKING AT IT in an environment where, quite frankly, nobody cares. I know if I was a younger official coming up, I'd be doing this at every possible opportunity. And yet I'll work 50-60 varsity games this season and never see a JV game worked 3-person. And no freshman games being worked 3-person. And no weekend youth games being worked 3-person. And so on...

While I'm ranting -- I do work quite a few 3-person varsity games where people are clearly uncomfortable with it. They hesitate and then don't rotate when it needs to happen, they reach out of their areas -- or worse, they hold a whistle they should have because they figure someone else will get it.

If we're going to win this battle, we have to show we have a plan and are competent at every varsity level contest -- or why WOULD we get an extra official hired?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Rich

..... they hold a whistle they should have because they figure someone else will get it.

This is the problem I always had, am slowly getting past it now. When you do something one way for 20+ years, then the number of people involved increases by 50%, it is hard to shake the feeling that you are in somebody else's way.

[JRutledge]

I do not put too much stock in anything coaches say. They complain when a guy works one person and they "screw up" on a call. So what a coach thinks is really silly to use that as the standard of what they want in their games. It takes time to get used to the system if you have never worked 3 Person. Coaches advocated things that are usually ignorant and self-serving. And coaches think we miss stuff when we do not call it there way. Just like yesterday in my game the home coach wanted us to call illegal screens on the other team when all they were in the first place were bad screens with no displacement. When I said to the coach, I can call that, but I will have to call the same on the other end, he did not have an answer. And most coaches just thing we should call what they want and they then use that as an excuse to not advocate the best system available to them.

Peace

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by Rich

It's a vicious circle.

People who don't work 3-person more than the occasional summer camp aren't going to feel comfortable. People who aren't comfortable are going to make mistakes, and coaches who see those mistakes argue they'd be better off with 2. The coach you talked to is right. If we don't have a third to get the off-ball stuff missed with 2 officials, why have a third?

What I don't see in this area are officials taking a third to JV or lower class games, splitting checks, and WORKING AT IT in an environment where, quite frankly, nobody cares. I know if I was a younger official coming up, I'd be doing this at every possible opportunity. And yet I'll work 50-60 varsity games this season and never see a JV game worked 3-person. And no freshman games being worked 3-person. And no weekend youth games being worked 3-person. And so on...

While I'm ranting -- I do work quite a few 3-person varsity games where people are clearly uncomfortable with it. They hesitate and then don't rotate when it needs to happen, they reach out of their areas -- or worse, they hold a whistle they should have because they figure someone else will get it.

If we're going to win this battle, we have to show we have a plan and are competent at every varsity level contest -- or why WOULD we get an extra official hired?

+1. I was going to post something along these lines. We have a metro area of about 400,000 people with around 275 officials in our association and we serve quite a few schools. Only one conference (About 10 schools) use 3-person for every home game. Another conference lets the schools choose, and even then only a handful of those schools choose to use three. So we have about 15 schools that use three officials. It's safe to say that the vast majority of officials don't work 3-person very often, and yet a lot of them are thrown into it during the district and state playoffs with little experience and are uncomfortable.

The state only mandates that you work a 3-person camp during the summer if you want to work the playoffs, which for us consists of working about two camp sessions. It's good experience, but not nearly enough IMO.

Basketball is at least better than baseball when it comes to 3-person officiating. Baseball is an unmitigated disaster when the state throws three guys on the field for playoff games.

[billyu2]

Originally Posted by Freddy

The dean of high school coaches in our area, who is also an AD as well as a state-tourney level football official himself, commented to me regarding 3-man recently:
"3-man is not going to go away."
I further probed for what seemed to be a negative opinion on 3-man vs. 2. What he didn't like about 3-man he summarized in two words: "More Whistles."
His point was not the occasional double whistle by good crews reacting to plays on the border of their PCA's, rather than he too often gets saddled with 3 guys who, as ballwatchers all, call violations and fouls at the same time. Triple whistles. That tells him that he, as an AD, was better off just having two ballwatchers cuz it's cheaper than having three.
Given the respected status of this veteran coach, I accepted this as somewhat a valid commentary on the state of 3-man officiating in our area and as an emphasis to continue in our scrimmages and rules meetings.
Some have simply gotta be doing a better job at PCA coverage.

I agree with JRut not putting too much stock in the coach's comment. Doesn't matter to me if he's the dean of coaches or is a state tournament football official. He might just be a guy who has an "attitude" about the 3-man system. On the other hand, if you, Freddy as an official, feel his comments have some validity and with the examples you cited to illustrate his point, then perhaps the problem might be a "half-fast" effort on the part of the state and local associations to implement, teach and improve the 3-man concept. And, if there are some "officials" who just don't get it or continue to be habitual ballwatchers...oh, well. When Ohio first adopted the system there was an official in our area who would insist during the pre-game-"We're not rotating tonight." Didn't get many games after that season.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by billyu2

I agree with JRut not putting too much stock in the coach's comment. Doesn't matter to me if he's the dean of coaches or is a state tournament football official. He might just be a guy who has an "attitude" about the 3-man system. On the other hand, if you, Freddy as an official, feel his comments have some validity and with the examples you cited to illustrate his point, then perhaps the problem might be a "half-fast" effort on the part of the state and local associations to implement, teach and improve the 3-man concept. And, if there are some "officials" who just don't get it or continue to be habitual ballwatchers...oh, well. When Ohio first adopted the system there was an official in our area who would insist during the pre-game-"We're not rotating tonight." Didn't get many games after that season.

There's one guy in the area who says to me, "I'm sure you're going to ping pong back and forth tonight." I used to laugh it off, but now I reply, "Yes, and so should you."

When I work with top 3-person officials, I know I'm on the same page. When I work with people who could use a "3-person mindset transplant", I feel like I should have a mechanism (or an electric cattle prod) to shove them (or pull them) across the lane.