Discovered Blood during a TO

[Sharpshooternes]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

4.34.1 SITUATION:

Team A requests a time-out; at the conclusion of the time-out as the teams are returning to the court, A1 curses at the game officials.

RULING: A1 is assessed a technical foul. The foul will count as one of A1's fouls toward disqualification and toward the team foul count.

COMMENT: During a time-out, A1 is considered a player and not bench personnel.


They are only BP during intermission.

Yep.

[PaulH]

If player A has blood on their uniform would they be able to switch into a new uniform with a new number? I saw it in the Illinois game the other night so I figure it is OK for the NCAA but what about high school?

[SNIPERBBB]

Originally Posted by PaulH

If player A has blood on their uniform would they be able to switch into a new uniform with a new number? I saw it in the Illinois game the other night so I figure it is OK for the NCAA but what about high school?

Yes and penalty free.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

Yes and penalty free.

After the scorer, and an official, are properly notified. I'm surprised that the NFHS doesn't require notification to the other team. It must be pretty difficult to guard against number 24's great three point shot from the left side, as you were coached during the halftime intermission, when number 24 is actually number 15?

[JetMetFan]

And this from one of my IAABO interpreters regarding A1 suffering concussion symptoms then the discovery that B1 has blood on their uniform while A1 is being attended to...

The coach of team B must request a time out in order to keep B-1 in the game as per 3-3-7...and the situation must be corrected by the end of the time out.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

I've read 3-3-7 notes more than once today due to this discussion. I'm not making anything up.

In your situation the player the coach pointed out after the timeout has not been directed to leave the game.

Casebook 3.3.7 Situation C refers to blood being discovered SIMULTANEOUSLY. That's not the case in your scenario.

You are making things up. You've somehow determined that the game ceases to exist when the ball is dead. It's a novel concept and one I'm fairly sure you're only using in regards to winning this argument.

Once an referee discovers blood, the rule is clear: a TO must be used in order for the player to remain in the game.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

You are making things up. You've somehow determined that the game ceases to exist when the ball is dead. It's a novel concept and one I'm fairly sure you're only using in regards to winning this argument.

Once an referee discovers blood, the rule is clear: a TO must be used in order for the player to remain in the game.

By the book you are correct. However if play is stopped for A1 concussion, and B1 has blood I am going to let then stay if it is fixed during that time. I think that is just good game management. If it isn't fixed when it is time to resume play then they have to take a time out to keep them in.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by OKREF

By the book you are correct. However if play is stopped for A1 concussion, and B1 has blood I am going to let then stay if it is fixed during that time. I think that is just good game management. If it isn't fixed when it is time to resume play then they have to take a time out to keep them in.

Why does one team get a free pass when the other doesn't just based on which one you observe first?

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by OKREF

By the book you are correct. However if play is stopped for A1 concussion, and B1 has blood I am going to let then stay if it is fixed during that time. I think that is just good game management. If it isn't fixed when it is time to resume play then they have to take a time out to keep them in.

And when B uses it's last timeout (the one you let them keep) to set up a play to score the winning goal and A's HC comes unglued causing you to have to toss him and the whole thing ends up in front of an appeals committee, is it still going to be good game management?

Good game management starts by applying the rules which have no leeway correctly. This isn't a judgement call; you don't have a choice other than to "not notice" before B gets a chance to take care of it. But once you've noticed, you're bound by the rule.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Why does one team get a free pass when the other doesn't just based o which on you observe first?

I see your point.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by OKREF

I see your point. I have probably been swayed. There is an advantage given to one team and not the other.

If you seriously do not believe that keeping the timeout team B should have had to use is NOT an advantage, then you go right ahead and keep making stuff up.

It will come back to bite you at some point.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

You are making things up. You've somehow determined that the game ceases to exist when the ball is dead. It's a novel concept and one I'm fairly sure you're only using in regards to winning this argument.

Once an referee discovers blood, the rule is clear: a TO must be used in order for the player to remain in the game.

What you call making things up I call applying the rule intelligently. You and others, even the majority, here can disagree. That's ok.

FWIW I asked two different interpreters and got two different answers so the rule is not as crystal clear as you think.

Originally Posted by Eastshire

And when B uses it's last timeout (the one you let them keep) to set up a play to score the winning goal and A's HC comes unglued causing you to have to toss him and the whole thing ends up in front of an appeals committee, is it still going to be good game management?

Good game management starts by applying the rules which have no leeway correctly. This isn't a judgement call; you don't have a choice other than to "not notice" before B gets a chance to take care of it. But once you've noticed, you're bound by the rule.

By the same token, you can look at the situation, which I proposed in post #35 and nobody answered:

"Officials stop the game with 30 seconds left in the 4th quarter to tend to a clock issue. As both teams walk to the area in front of their bench you notice A1 has blood on his elbow. While officials are still tending to the clock issue A1's trainer stops bleeding and puts a bandage on the elbow."

Are you going to make team B use their last timeout in this situation, or even if they have no timeouts, to allow their player to stay in the game? Pretty sure the HC is going to come unglued here as well (even more so than in your scenario).

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

By the same token, you can look at the situation, which I proposed in post #35 and nobody answered:

"Officials stop the game with 30 seconds left in the 4th quarter to tend to a clock issue. As both teams walk to the area in front of their bench you notice A1 has blood on his elbow. While officials are still tending to the clock issue A1's trainer stops bleeding and puts a bandage on the elbow."

Are you going to make team B use their last timeout in this situation, or even if they have no timeouts, to allow their player to stay in the game. Pretty sure the HC is going to come unglued here as well.

If I see blood and it isn't cleaned up before I tell the coach to get it cleaned up, the player is sitting unless a TO is used. The HC is unlikely to come unglued because, unlike the other scenario, I have actually enforced the rule rather than allowed his opponent to break the rule. And even if he did, I have the rules with me, rather than against me at the appeal.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

By the same token, you can look at the situation, which I proposed in post #35 and nobody answered:

"Officials stop the game with 30 seconds left in the 4th quarter to tend to a clock issue. As both teams walk to the area in front of their bench you notice A1 has blood on his elbow. While officials are still tending to the clock issue A1's trainer stops bleeding and puts a bandage on the elbow."

And where would you have gotten such an idea? Perhaps from page 2 of this same thread:

Originally Posted by just another ref

I'm looking at it this way. If a stoppage of any kind is already in progress, there is no "game" for the player to leave. I see a kid standing in the huddle with blood on his arm. Before I can say anything, the trainer wipes off the blood and applies a bandage. By the time the "game" resumes, he's ready to go.

Isn't a timeout a part of the game? Maybe so, but even if it is, the player doesn't have to leave it.

"But their player was bleeding, too!"

Is this fair? You be the judge. Why is this any different than any other missed call? You might not see anything at all except the bandage after the fact.

"See! Their player was bleeding, too!"

This is no different than any other missed call.

This rule has other issues. A1 is bleeding, but is contacted by B1, and now you see blood on both, so both have to call the timeout or leave the game. Is this fair?

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

If I see blood and it isn't cleaned up before I tell the coach to get it cleaned up, the player is sitting unless a TO is used. The HC is unlikely to come unglued because, unlike the other scenario, I have actually enforced the rule rather than allowed his opponent to break the rule. And even if he did, I have the rules with me, rather than against me at the appeal.

Respectfully disagree here. He's gonna become much more unglued here than in your scenario IMO.

Like I said, I asked an interpreter and an assignor/interpreter both these questions.

The first agreed with what many of you are saying here. That 3-3-7 requires them the coach to use the TO regardless.

The latter said to use common sense and allow the player to play if situation is properly addressed before we are ready to resume.

As I said before, despite what some think, the rules book and case book do not address every single variable of every situation. Sometimes there is some grey area that requires officials to apply the rule intelligently and make a decision.

I believe this is one of those situations and am confident I'm on solid ground should such a situation present itself to me on the court. You and others may disagree. That's fine. Maybe we'll see, maybe we won't.